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does injustices damage scaling harm the hype factor?

kabelfritz

Master
topic: injustices way of scaling may make a sense in terms of balance, but its so counter-intuitive that spectators might not understand whats going on. if the viewers dont intuitvely understand the game, there is less hype.
i mean, some chars doing 22 hits, thats hype and should normally do good damage, but then you see "oh its 25%, didnt the other guy just get 27% from 3 hits?". or different scaling from different moves with the same follow-ups. dedicated launchers have way more scaling than kinda obscure moves, which can result in a 12-hit combo doing less damage than a similar 8-hit-combo (ex. raven).

it might be a necessity though, due to characters which have such good tools that normal damage output would make them op. but then the fault lies even deeper, in the basic character design. if a character has such good tools that the damage output cannot be as high as youd normally expect it from his weapons of choice (lets say sword and guns or sword and fire) to be balanced, you gotta rethink the whole character design to make it balanced, still fitting (in this case the DC Char blueprints) but also intuitively understandable.
same goes for different scaling moves on one character. if they think comboing from a dedicated launcher string is too easy, they should rather give that string worse frame data so its harder to land instead of nerfing the damage output after it, which makes no sense.

this is not against damage scaling overall, even though a perfect game wouldnt have it, cause why would the same attack do less damage when you got hit by it before? but its kinda a necessity in NRS games because of the creative combo system. the other option would be to find every combo themselves and adjust the movelist in a way that the game is still balanced and not ridiculous. but thats kinda unrealistic (or isnt it? maybe its worth a try). i dont like damage scaling at all but as long as its consistent through all characters and moves i dont mind it, cause i still know whats going on. but counter - intuitive damage output and scaling which you can only understand if you have in-depth knowledge of a character makes the game hard to understand for viewers sometimes and therefore less hype.
 

kabelfritz

Master
4 frames Super F23 Laser Man kills the hype.
well, superman is a good example. he has to have a great damage output and also a good zoning, thats inherent to the characters abilitiies. but why would you give a character that relies on superhuman strength and abilities good footsies or a lowstarter? that is character design i dont understand.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
The skillgap kills the hype
This. I see really simple to do combos getting rewarded more than technical as hell combos. I see one move interactibles and MB B3 transition moves doing more than full combos.

How is that hype? Its like the opposite of skill=reward. I know I've been down on the game lately, but I just dont have an answer for why certain things in the basic designs of damage, and tools across the game are so backwards. Maybe its all the KoF Xiii I've been dancing back to lately, but I just keep feeling things are off on a fundamental level with some stuff in this game.

I like what I like same as all the MK folks, and I like DC comics a LOT. I like playing as them in a fighting game A LOT. However, there are a lot of things I dont enjoy about how I get to go about that in this game. Im sticking around, but I wish a few things would change about this game.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
This. I see really simple to do combos getting rewarded more than technical as hell combos. I see one move interactibles and MB B3 transition moves doing more than full combos.

How is that hype? Its like the opposite of skill=reward. I know I've been down on the game lately, but I just dont have an answer for why certain things in the basic designs of damage, and tools across the game are so backwards. Maybe its all the KoF Xiii I've been dancing back to lately, but I just keep feeling things are off on a fundamental level with some stuff in this game.

I like what I like same as all the MK folks, and I like DC comics a LOT. I like playing as them in a fighting game A LOT. However, there are a lot of things I dont enjoy about how I get to go about that in this game. Im sticking around, but I wish a few things would change about this game.
Superman is a very strong character, but have you seen the WNF match Tyrant vs Theo? Sure these matches are rare, but what do you expect, the game is only 3 months old. It will only get better, if you see someone get dominated because he doesnt now the matchup/getting outplayed sure its not as hype, but that counts for every game. And superman can be beat! :p
 

BrokenAngels00

Longtime Lurker
Superman is a very strong character, but have you seen the WNF match Tyrant vs Theo? Sure these matches are rare, but what do you expect, the game is only 3 months old. It will only get better, if you see someone get dominated because he doesnt now the matchup/getting outplayed sure its not as hype, but that counts for every game. And superman can be beat! :p
Did you see the game at EVO where PL got outplayed by a Nightwing so he switched over to Supes and lasered the remaining matches and won? It was a joke.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Superman is a very strong character, but have you seen the WNF match Tyrant vs Theo? Sure these matches are rare, but what do you expect, the game is only 3 months old. It will only get better, if you see someone get dominated because he doesnt now the matchup/getting outplayed sure its not as hype, but that counts for every game. And superman can be beat! :p
Superman can be beaten, but I'm not saying Superman...just low skill stuff in general is a bit too high in damage compared to all the really high hit combos I keep seeing out of some areas. I just dont believe in the damage you get from interactibles, the transitions doing so much (MB B3 is an amazing tool for everyone) and just...just I dont see why some folks are the way they are. I keep seeing a lot of folks reduced to one or two strings for the damage and ...I dunno. Just sort of down lately I guess. Game can be fast and back and forth and turn on a dime and that can be hype, but it gets really repetitive and some really really simple stuff is so good it kind of insults highly technical combos in terms of damage. Just doesn't feel fair that some of the crazier technical links don't reward well.

Did you see the game at EVO where PL got outplayed by a Nightwing so he switched over to Supes and lasered the remaining matches and won? It was a joke.
Yes...yes it was. I think this game needs a mobility buff pretty badly. Zoning is a bit too easy to setup in a game with few air dashes, poor walk speed, no wave dash, and no projectile canceling. Jump in strength is the only thing that saves some folks.
 

big_aug

Kombatant
Why do combos need to be technical to do damage? Let's be serious. Any moron can push a series of buttons one after the other at the appropriate times to create crazy combos. This game is all about playing your opponent and reacting to what they do. Combos are just simple repetition. Correctly predicting what your opponent will do and punishing him for it is something that goes much deeper. A combo, technical or simple, is a means to an end. Smart, strategic play should be rewarded instead of highly technical combos.

I see the fighting game that focuses more on fighting the player and less on fighting the controls/inputs as a success.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Why do combos need to be technical to do damage? Let's be serious. Any moron can push a series of buttons one after the other at the appropriate times to create crazy combos. This game is all about playing your opponent and reacting to what they do. Combos are just simple repetition. Correctly predicting what your opponent will do and punishing him for it is something that goes much deeper. A combo, technical or simple, is a means to an end. Smart, strategic play should be rewarded instead of highly technical combos.
Why should it be one or the other? Most fighting games reward both...dont see why this one shouldn't. Guys with mad combos also have to read and react like crazy too. Only difference is they are playing characters who generally dont reward proper reads as easily as other folks as they dont output damage like mad. There are only a couple of Green Arrows for a reason. Same goes for a lot of other cast who suffer from this.
 

big_aug

Kombatant
Why should it be one or the other? Most fighting games reward both...dont see why this one shouldn't. Guys with mad combos also have to read and react like crazy too. Only difference is they are playing characters who generally dont reward proper reads as easily as other folks as they dont output damage like mad. There are only a couple of Green Arrows for a reason. Same goes for a lot of other cast who suffer from this.
I'm glad there aren't crazy combos doing massive damage. They have that shit in Marvel and its just awful to watch. Do you really want the game to come down to one or two hits ends a round? That's as boring as it gets. Highly technical combos are rewarded with a few extra percent damage. That's how it should be.
 

BrokenAngels00

Longtime Lurker
Would it be better if all combo damage was lowered with a less harsh scaling? That way there aren't touches of death, but technical skill and combo length are rewarded.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
I'm glad there aren't crazy combos doing massive damage. They have that shit in Marvel and its just awful to watch. Do you really want the game to come down to one or two hits ends a round? That's as boring as it gets. Highly technical combos are rewarded with a few extra percent damage. That's how it should be.
I wasn't implying they need a damage boost I was implying that folks dont play them because small combo major reward stuff exists on other folks. Im implying that damage shouldn't be so low in skill to get on other folks. Power characters dominate this game in terms of viable tools and low entry barriers. I dont think thats really very hype is all. I like seeing long combos and technical stuff...I dont get to very often due to the way the game is set up on some tools.

It is what it is. To each their own, but I just wish they hadn't made low skill damage so appealing and abusable in this game on various strings and features like the interactibles and transitions. Lowers my hype.
 
Damage scaling kills my hype, especially in the training room. Stage-combo ideas with Flash come to me on the daily at work. Invariably, I get home and into the lab only to discover that, despite the swag, my combo idea does 35%. Its so fucking lame.
 

big_aug

Kombatant
I don't get the fixation with "technical skill." It's the same thing with playing guitar. There are people who think they need to play fast and be really skilled technically. All that means is they can play fast and technical. It doesn't mean they can actually create music. Most people will tell you the speed and skill will come and be present naturally. The same could be said of fighting games. Doing technical combos doesn't mean shit. If you can actually play the game well, you'll do the damage you need to do naturally and you'll win.

Maybe the analogy is bad, but I think my point is clear.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Doing technical combos doesn't mean shit. If you can actually play the game well, you'll do the damage you need to do naturally and you'll win.

Maybe the analogy is bad, but I think my point is clear.
I...cant make this make any sense. Sorry. This is not the case in most fighting games. Technical skills to land combos means a lot and it means you play the game well if you are skilled enough to do them. Not rewarding it is kind of not the norm and offputting to a lot of people. There is no naturally doing damage off of reads. You have to train to convert that stuff and you should have to be expected to do that training otherwise you create a shallow experience that rewards folks less the more they dig. Creating an experience that rewards highest at casual levels of timing and rewards lower at higher levels of technical timing creates a casual experience.

To each their own, but I cant justify that point of view for balance at all.
 

A New Angel Is Advent

mutton basher
Most games are not about combo duration, they're about the starter. Typically, a light attack is more likely to hit and safer to throw out. Light attacks tend to scale more than heavies. Risk/reward and all that. I think this should be the model for every fg. I shouldn't be getting 40% off of a 5 frame punish. I should be able to take a huge chunk of life if I throw out a risky meaty attack and land it. 5 hits or 500 doesn't matter since every follow up hit is guaranteed.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
I just dont think any fighting game should flowchart this much. The easy reward damage issues are a big part of it.
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
No, I doubt anyone really notices that much when watching.

Sometimes damage scaling seems a bit too strong in this game though, but I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, so their are probably very good reasons why certain moves scale a combo to hell and back.

I really wish they would unscale the damage from D2's though, air to airs don't scale that bad.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
I wasn't implying they need a damage boost I was implying that folks dont play them because small combo major reward stuff exists on other folks. Im implying that damage shouldn't be so low in skill to get on other folks. Power characters dominate this game in terms of viable tools and low entry barriers. I dont think thats really very hype is all. I like seeing long combos and technical stuff...I dont get to very often due to the way the game is set up on some tools.

It is what it is. To each their own, but I just wish they hadn't made low skill damage so appealing and abusable in this game on various strings and features like the interactibles and transitions. Lowers my hype.
I dont really understand your point. What is low skill damage, getting hit by a laser from supes?

But anyway, i played alot of hype matches and seen many hype matches. So im not really complaining.