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Opinion on divekick / divekick-like moves?

How should all divekick / divekick-like moves hit?


  • Total voters
    32

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
With the release of Martin Manhunter I realized he's the 7th character who's divekick-like move hits overhead. I'm making this thread to discuss the obvious disparity across the roster in this aspect of the game.

There are 13 characters with a divekick or divekick-like move in their moveset which are (correct me if I'm wrong):
  1. Batgirl: DB+3 3 (Overhead)
  2. Batman: J J 2 (Mid)
  3. Black Adam: J DF+3 / DB+3 (Overhead)
  4. Doomsday: DB+3 MB (Mid)
  5. Flash: Interactable attack (Mid)
  6. Hawkgirl: J D+3 (Overhead), DB+2 2 (Overhead), DB+2 3 (Mid)
  7. Killer Frost: Interactable attack (Mid)
  8. Lobo: J D+3 (Overhead)
  9. Martian Manhunter: DB+3 D (Overhead)
  10. Raven: Interactable attack (Mid)
  11. Scorpion: Interactable attack (Mid)
  12. Superman: J D+3 (Overhead)
  13. Wonder Woman: J DB+3 (Overhead)
As you can see from the list half of those attacks hit overhead, while the other half hits mid. This clearly shouldn't be the case, specially considering how powerful most the overhead divekicks are --there's no need to explain Superman, Wonder Woman, and now Martian Manhunter.

What's your opinion on this subject?

Personally I vote for all of them to hit overhead. If top tier characters like Superman and Wonder Woman can get extra dirt via a divekick, all other characters should as well.

colt

A F0xy Grampa AK Pig Of The Hut AK Smarrgasm AK Trepound380 Blind_Man Cossner Denzell EGP Wonder_Chef EMPEROR_THEO GGA 16 Bit GGA Dizzy GGA Jeremiah Joker8417 KDZ killa_solid Konqrr Metzos MITDJT NY_Jailhouse Perfect Legend Qwark28 ShanxterX Under_The_Mayo UsedForGlue Vulcan Hades Zyphox
 
With the release of Martin Manhunter I realized he's the 7th character who's divekick-like move hits overhead. I'm making this thread to discuss the obvious disparity across the roster in this aspect of the game.

There are 13 characters with a divekick or divekick-like move in their moveset which are (correct me if I'm wrong):
  1. Batgirl: DB+3 3 (Overhead)
  2. Batman: J J 2 (Mid)
  3. Black Adam: J DF+3 / DB+3 (Overhead)
  4. Doomsday: DB+3 MB (Mid)
  5. Flash: Interactable attack (Mid)
  6. Hawkgirl: J D+3 (Overhead), DB+2 2 (Overhead), DB+2 3 (Mid)
  7. Killer Frost: Interactable attack (Mid)
  8. Lobo: J D+3 (Overhead)
  9. Martian Manhunter: DB+3 D (Overhead)
  10. Raven: Interactable attack (Mid)
  11. Scorpion: Interactable attack (Mid)
  12. Superman: J D+3 (Overhead)
  13. Wonder Woman: J DB+3 (Overhead)
As you can see from the list half of those attacks hit overhead, while the other half hits mid. This clearly shouldn't be the case, specially considering how powerful most the overhead divekicks are --there's no need to explain Superman, Wonder Woman, and now Martian Manhunter.

What's your opinion on this subject?

Personally I vote for all of them to hit overhead. If top tier characters like Superman and Wonder Woman can get extra dirt via a divekick, all other characters should as well.

colt
Although i dont see there being an issue with every divekick or divekick like move being an overhead at the same time i dont think there should be some set rule that if its a divekick = its an overhead.

All of these specials are different specials from each other (other then the aerial chars interactables) and should be treated differently for that reason

So 'could' every divekick be an overhead? Sure why not BUT i dont think every divekick 'should' be an overhead just bc its a divekick if you get what im trying to say

Just my .02
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
Although i dont see there being an issue with every divekick or divekick like move being an overhead at the same time i dont think there should be some set rule that if its a divekick = its an overhead.

All of these specials are different specials from each other (other then the aerial chars interactables) and should be treated differently for that reason

So 'could' every divekick be an overhead? Sure why not BUT i dont think every divekick 'should' be an overhead just bc its a divekick if you get what im trying to say

Just my .02
I understand. However, given how in this game the most powerful ones are overheads I believe it is better for balancing issues to make the others overheads as well.

We can make a case out of Batman since he's already very powerful, but the acrobatic characters got the short end of the stick specially since they are the most limited when it comes to interactables.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
So you want Batman and Doomsday to have an overhead divekick? How about fuck no.

As far as acrobatic characters go I think the divekicks should hit overhead, but they would still kinda be useless anyway.

Also MMH's is totally not a divekick, he goes straight down.
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
So you want Batman and Doomsday to have an overhead divekick? How about fuck no.

As far as acrobatic characters go I think the divekicks should hit overhead, but they would still kinda be useless anyway.

Also MMH's is totally not a divekick, he goes straight down.
Doomsday's requiere's meter, travels short distance and it's full combo punishable on block. So how about fuck yes.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Doomsday's requiere's meter, travels short distance and it's full combo punishable on block. So how about fuck yes.
Are you talking about the uppercut thing? Because the uppercut thing is dumb anyway and not really used by most DD players I have seen. I guess that can be overhead but I do not see how that will change anything.
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
Are you talking about the uppercut thing? Because the uppercut thing is dumb anyway and not really used by most DD players I have seen. I guess that can be overhead but I do not see how that will change anything.
Right now is a bit gimmicky because like you said it's usage is not common so most people aren't expecting it and don't know it's a mid. However, like I said it costs meter, it's unsafe on block, and on hit you get only a 20-ish % combo. The fact it costs meter already makes it more balanced than Superman's or Wonder Woman's.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
B
Right now is a bit gimmicky because like you said it's usage is not common so most people aren't expecting it and don't know it's a mid. However, like I said it costs meter, it's unsafe on block, and on hit you get only a 20-ish % combo. The fact it costs meter already makes it more balanced than Superman's or Wonder Woman's.
But my point is why should they waste time and effort making it an overhead when that would not change the fact that it is useless and a waste of meter? Why would you ever venom uppercut instead of Venom charge MB
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
B

But my point is why should they waste time and effort making it an overhead when that would not change the fact that it is useless and a waste of meter? Why would you ever venom uppercut instead of Venom charge MB
If it is an overhead it could be used after knockdown setups.

That's the whole point of this thread: making things that are useless right now, useful.

I didn't think it was necessary for me to spell it out. :coffee:
 

nfdsallwd

Apprentice
teleports are not divekicks to begin with
edit: my bad here probably, too early in the morning for me but i thought you talk about supernova and other teleport moves, nevermind my post
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Right now is a bit gimmicky because like you said it's usage is not common so most people aren't expecting it and don't know it's a mid. However, like I said it costs meter, it's unsafe on block, and on hit you get only a 20-ish % combo. The fact it costs meter already makes it more balanced than Superman's or Wonder Woman's.
Supermans is incredibly punishable and WWs has no use outside of the corner, otherwise it'd be a waste of a slot to put a move in.

Acrobatic environment dive kicks are already really strong tbh, dunno if making them overheads would make them better or not
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
Hawkgirl's dive kick makes her lose all the advantage on pressure, and her WE(2) is +4 but only gives a free D1 on midscreen that can be back dashed
 

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
Bildslash I 100% agree, dive kicks imo should pretty much always be overheads unless changed for balancing purposes. Imho I think making that whole list of dive kicks hit overhead would be fine. HOWEVER, I also believe that a LARGE PORTION of the moves on that list should be punishable like it is for some of the characters who don't get to use it so free these days.
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
Aren't the Acrobat divekicks safe on block and gain you an absurd amount of meter?

I'm actually asking, I have no idea.

I remember a Scorpion player abusing the shit out of it once though.
 

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
Aren't the Acrobat divekicks safe on block and gain you an absurd amount of meter?

I'm actually asking, I have no idea.

I remember a Scorpion player abusing the shit out of it once though.
It is safe, but as for the meter I'm not sure. However it's not ublockable and can't be combo'd out of so I don't much reason not to make it overhead.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Right now it seems that some divekicks are drastically better than others e.g superman and wonderwoman

then you have gimmicky ass divekicks like DDs MB air venom the risk and reward of which are just dumb, hooray for a 24% combo for hitting your opponent only with the divekick part of air venom which only happens if your opp doesn't know it has armour or is caught off guard. I say let MB air venom crossup in many more situations, fix the hitbox, let the players decide the range of the divekick manually and allow it to combo with a B3 even if the original MB air venom hits you, doomsday heavily needs this because MB air venom is almost useless right. I have found some new tech i will be sharing later tho

Why should a character like WW have hers hit overhead? It is a basic part of her corner play but its already an otg and + on block, lets not keep it overhead.

Superman on the other hand, should not be nerfed in the slightest because we know he's getting nerfed, let's see what the nerfs are about and then we can decide. If he loses his damage or his main tool , f23 , he will be almost nothing and will need his OTG which unlike WWs is full combo on block.

Things to note though, WW is a much better char than superman and doesn't rely only on one gameplan and the community so far is 3 months into the game with this logic

Month 1 = nerf dis nerf dat omg supermeng

Month 2 = Scorpion, nothing else.

Month 3 = supes le poops won EVO, nerf. No current understanding of how his zoning is supposed to be used and everyone is judging off of those who panicked in the top 8 of evo and even went as far to be humiliated by having their braindead opponent drop their combo on purpose and go for a 32 fucking frame overhead.

TBH I don't wanna rant about superman but lets let this evolve, superman being number 1 has been burnt in this communitys mind for a long time when he's not even the best

When it comes to acrobatic divekicks, sensitive territory, you don't wanna nerf or buff anything, you already see all the acrobatics are in top 10 ( flash, kf , manface ) without even proper interactible usage, giving them that is ridiculous, my suggestions are to let the player decide where he's gonna divekick, no autotracking. On whiff its death, on block it can build a lot of meter and let the character be at +5 for using such a seemingly not good interactible.

leave batmans and lobos as it is, except maybe give lobo something extra for landing this move.

Adams is just fine, i'd say it should be nerfed to the ground but the characters design is so fucking stupid ( and this coming from one of the first people to get their hands on him even pre release ) . Its not just one move, its a lot of fucking moves, when i was finding dirt with this character, stages, b2 throw, b2 throw mechanics and general frametraps from ex lightning I was disgusted.

There is tech I had found that doesn't even go to use anymore, you still actually see people like rico suave and godspeed do B2 trait 112 without even understanding just what they can do, B2 trait throw instead is 14%. 14% you can do nothing about and that damage is on tech, reverses momentum, gets the opp off you and allows you to go back fullscree nbefore they recover. dont even get me started on ex lightning.

point being, people still dont abuse the ridiculous dirt adam has. noone has seen adams dirt in tournament yet, thats whats so scary, noone is even doing B2 trait instant divekick which is a free 48% if they dont block backwards.

TBH, i'd nerf the divekicks damage scaling bad. Right now you see people without the execution to do the 48% combo which is doable from wherever the divekick hits you, what happens when someone uses this character to their max potential? what if someone gets a hitbox or has good execution and starts doing safe ass yolo ex divekicks with the amount of meter adam builds and gets 48% off of them 100% of the time? So far adam is the character that gets the most free shit out of anyone in the cast and hes so fucking ignored because the people out there winning with him dont abuse his true dirt.
 

Boodendorf

Bird woman!
Hawkgirl's footdive should be +25 on block :joker: .

And she doesn't need we3 to be overhead, she has enough overheads already gawd.
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
Supermans is incredibly punishable and WWs has no use outside of the corner, otherwise it'd be a waste of a slot to put a move in.
Even when Supe's is punishable and WW only gets to use in the corner, in both cases those moves have legit uses the opponent has to respect and be aware of or else risk getting blown up into oblivion. The reason they are even used to begin with is because they hit overhead, hence can be used for ambigous crossup setups.

All other divekick moves that hid mid are undersused because they grant nothing on block and blocking them is not a guessing game.