Differentiating the Injustice grapplers

[volkmair]

In my continuing (and probably never ending) quest to choose a character in Injustice I've moved on to the grapplers, mostly because at the moment I think being able to combo into a command throw in Injustice is the best thing ever. Currently how they are in my head is:

• Solomon Grundy, a pure grappler, a slow hard hitting tank able to pressure his opponent with 'grab fear'.
• Bane, more a brawler with a command throw, doesn't have the 'grab fear' of Grundy but with the super armour given by venom can plough through things and threaten that way.
• Shazzam, has a sort of grapple mix-up with his high or low throws, less hard hitting but with more mobility.
• Lobo, not sure if he counts really as his command throw seems really situational outside of combos.

I'm curious if people see them similarly or if I'm off the mark with them. I've mostly been playing Bane as I like how his super armour lets you play more aggressively compared to Grundy's more patient game.

 

[Red Venom]

I was previously a Bane main before I switched to the main man. But heres my 2 cents on how I personally play both.

Bane-I usually combo into his command throw, it's pretty godlike to use his command grab on an opponents wake-up if you have venom up. A good way to mix-up your opponent is to poke them with a D1 then cancel into Double Punch most don't expect that and when you've got them in a corner F3 city all day/Venom command grab lolololol

Lobo-I tend to play him defensively against better players, but when I figure out how my opponent plays, I'm able to mix them up really well, Lobo's game doesn't really revolve around his command grab. It's mainly a combo extender, the main priority with Lobo is Okizeme and mind games. He's deadly if you can condition your opponents to respect your moves. As you may already be aware one of his major downfalls is zoners, but the better Lobo mains including myself are getting better at closing distance. I played a set with Cage Redfield last night, he has a really solid Lobo knows exactly what to use and when to use it. I came close to winning in a few matches, but choked when I had the advantage. Just got a little to nervous, I expected him to be a good player and psyched myself out.

 

[Doombawkz]

Bane isn't a really a grappler per se, but I mean he can use his command grab out of normal throw and it'll connect so at least he is unique.

 

[Cage Redfield]

Lobo is not a grappler in the sense that Zangief is, with his entire game revolving around conditioning the opponent and scooping them for their mistakes. Lobo is a character that relies on all sorts of mix-ups. High/Low, Left/Right, etc etc. However, some of his dirt comes from his frame traps into Czar Toss. 12 xx Czar Toss, 21 xx Czar Toss and B2U1 xx Czar Toss are pretty much the staple examples of this. He also has true meaty Czar Toss setups and resets. But you aren't going to see a Lobo player do something like Dash into Czar Toss, due to it's kinda-sorta-slow startup.

I guess if I had to make a comparison to an existing character, it'd be that Lobo is somewhat like Makoto from SF. Makoto has a command grab, it's vital to her game, but her game-plan does not revolve around it like Zangief's game-plan.

 

[volkmair]

So really Grundy and Shazam are the only really throw as their game plan focussed grapple characters, while for Bane and Lobo their command throw is just part of their offence?

 

[Red Venom]

Essentially, as Ed Boon said Lobo is more of a brawler type...

 

[IrishMantis]

Bane and Lobo are def grapplers

if there main fundamental is on Grapples in a sense they are Grapplers

Bane
-Mid CMD grab that can do heavy Damage
-Can be MB'd for more damage and choose which side the Op lands on
-4 different type of Air Throw, each with different position properties
-Venom gives his Gran armor and it also increases the damage on his normal throws
-CMD grab has frames of invincibility on wake up
-His SUPER is an unblockable Grab that can reach nearly half screen

Lobo
-Mid CMD grab that Lobo relies to "Start" or "extend" combo for a ton of damage
-Has an Air grab that can be MB'd to choose what side his Op lands on
-Lobo has the strongest Okie game, infact Lobo's whole chance on winning is his Okie game, which is due to his CMD grab, which 50/50s most chars in the game from a hard knockdown, into his CMD grab
-Lobo has alot off attacks that causes an untechable knockdown for the sake off what i stated above =meaning his CMD grab
-Altough not Generuos his CMD grab does have a small window off Invincability for Wake up,,,,, plus when his useless tarit is active it gives his normal throws extra damage

just because the char doesn't have more then one CMD grab doesn't mean there not, dont even try saying well then Harley,KF,Cyborg are grapplers, since theres are all high, and do they do not relie on them

 

[Doombawkz]

Bane and Lobo are def grapplers

if there main fundamental is on Grapples in a sense they are Grapplers

Bane
-Mid CMD grab that can do heavy Damage
-Can be MB'd for more damage and choose which side the Op lands on
-4 different type of Air Throw, each with different position properties
-Venom gives his Gran armor and it also increases the damage on his normal throws
-CMD grab has frames of invincibility on wake up
-His SUPER is an unblockable Grab that can reach nearly half screen

I think you make the mistake of Bane being "fundamental" in his grapple use. You basically just listed command grab's properties.

Command grab :
- does as much as charge, slightly more than uppercut
- Can be MB'd to buy more time to have the venom cooldown wear off
- Venom gives most specials armor and increases the damage on everything
- So do most of his other attacks
- Easily neutral jumpable, can be beaten by grab immune attacks, only useful as a tech roll/fast stand trap and combo ender.

Venom Uppercut:
- Does slightly less damage, gives more advantage
- Can be MB'd to make the most out of your venom time and shave time off of your debuff
- Can reliably knock people out of the air due to the armor it gets from venom
- When Meterburned, throws opponents into the far corner. When in the corner, allows for free follow-ups.
- Can be neutral crossed-over, much less intensive of a command listing, more reliable damage


Anti-air:

Ring toss:
- Gains no benefit from venom armor wise, is the only special which does not.
- Does about as much damage as venom uppercut
- Gives next to no advantage
- Pitiable range with terrible start-up
- No wake-up invulnerability

Double Punch:
- Gains benefit from venom
- Does much less damage but gives the best advantage
- Overhead, neutral on block
- Exceptional range both upwards and outwards
- Wake-up invulnerability




You can ask any number of Banes and they will tell you the command grab is nice for damage, but what you really want is the advantage. Command grab is decent oki, decent damage, but far from the focus of Bane's kit. If you want the true power of Bane, honestly look to d.1 and double punch. He is a striker, not a "grappler".

 

[Red Venom]

If you want the true power of Bane, honestly look to d.1 and double punch.

Its true man, the D1 Double Punch is ultimate power lol

 

[IrishMantis]

I think you make the mistake of Bane being "fundamental" in his grapple use. You basically just listed command grab's properties.

Command grab :
- does as much as charge, slightly more than uppercut
- Can be MB'd to buy more time to have the venom cooldown wear off
- Venom gives most specials armor and increases the damage on everything
- So do most of his other attacks
- Easily neutral jumpable, can be beaten by grab immune attacks, only useful as a tech roll/fast stand trap and combo ender.

Venom Uppercut:
- Does slightly less damage, gives more advantage
- Can be MB'd to make the most out of your venom time and shave time off of your debuff
- Can reliably knock people out of the air due to the armor it gets from venom
- When Meterburned, throws opponents into the far corner. When in the corner, allows for free follow-ups.
- Can be neutral crossed-over, much less intensive of a command listing, more reliable damage


Anti-air:

Ring toss:
- Gains no benefit from venom armor wise, is the only special which does not.
- Does about as much damage as venom uppercut
- Gives next to no advantage
- Pitiable range with terrible start-up
- No wake-up invulnerability

Double Punch:
- Gains benefit from venom
- Does much less damage but gives the best advantage
- Overhead, neutral on block
- Exceptional range both upwards and outwards
- Wake-up invulnerability




You can ask any number of Banes and they will tell you the command grab is nice for damage, but what you really want is the advantage. Command grab is decent oki, decent damage, but far from the focus of Bane's kit. If you want the true power of Bane, honestly look to d.1 and double punch. He is a striker, not a "grappler".

I know it does extra damage on other stuff, but it def counts for something since its on the grab

in comparison to Other fighters Banes a grappler,,,,,
Like hes in the Grappler Category

and yes I play Bane too

and i also a agree D1, bf2 all day

 

[Red Venom]

LBSH we all play Bane am I right?

 

[IrishMantis]

LBSH we all play Bane am I right?

I love playing fun chars

 

[Doombawkz]

I know it does extra damage on other stuff, but it def counts for something since its on the grab

in comparison to Other fighters Banes a grappler,,,,,
Like hes in the Grappler Category

and yes a play Bane too

"in comparison to other fighters" anyone with a command grab is a grappler since theres only about 8 of them out of some 28 people.
Lobo as well, not a grappler since his grab is mainly combo extention. His real power comes from low chain and his mobility.

Extra damage counts everywhere. The grab is inefficient, it takes up a lot of venom time for not much result. As I said, its a nifty oki tool but you don't get enough from it to warrant it being your main focus. That said, some Banes like BiPolarExxpress make the command grab a central part of their strategy however even they can agree that its not enough to survive off of. Its good for taking shots, but when it comes down to it you get much more milage off of his strikes than his grabs.

 

[IrishMantis]

"in comparison to other fighters" anyone with a command grab is a grappler since theres only about 8 of them out of some 28 people.
Lobo as well, not a grappler since his grab is mainly combo extention. His real power comes from low chain and his mobility.

Extra damage counts everywhere. The grab is inefficient, it takes up a lot of venom time for not much result. As I said, its a nifty oki tool but you don't get enough from it to warrant it being your main focus. That said, some Banes like BiPolarExxpress make the command grab a central part of their strategy however even they can agree that its not enough to survive off of. Its good for taking shots, but when it comes down to it you get much more milage off of his strikes than his grabs.

Look at my post above i knew you would of saying that, about than every char with CMD grab, Lobo is 2nd main hes def a grappler, listen im just stating my point of view

not taking shot at you at all man, i just disagree with your point and you disagree with mine, its a philosephy on how you look at it i guess,
, im looking at for the Property stand point, i have a point system in my mind to go for all cast to differentiate the grapplers (could look bias)

Your not gonna change my mind, im not gonna change yours, infact i think Bane and lobo are more off a grappler than Shazam, so if ya wanna go taht way we call Grundy the only Grappler which i disagree

but in anyway i guess we could settle it on a poll or something

P.S. im not downplaying your Bane knowledge as im sure your bane is more than likely 10x sicker than mine

 

[Red Venom]

Look at my post above i knew you would of saying that, about than every char with CMD grab, Lobo is 2nd main hes def a grappler, listen im just stating my point of view

not taking shot at you at all man, i just disagree with your point and you disagree with mine, its a philosephy on how you look at it i guess,
, im looking at for the Property stand point, i have a point system in my mind to go for all cast to differentiate the grapplers (could look bias)

Your not gonna change my mind, im not gonna change yours, infact i think Bane and lobo are more off a grappler than Shazam,s o if ya wanna go taht way we call Grundy the only Grappler which i disagree

but in anyway i guess we settle it on a poll or something

P.S. im not downplaying your Bane knowledge as im sure your bane is more than likely 10x sicker than mine

I vote for a poll

 

[chief713]

Command grab is a big part of Bane's gameplay, even he doesn't land it much. The strikes condition people to block and command grab punishes that. Likewise, command grab conditions people to press buttons, jump and backdash and Bane's stikes punish that. His strikes and grapples go hand in hand and I definitely think he's a grappler, albeit a little unconventional.

 

[Red Venom]

Command grab is a big part of Bane's gameplay, even he doesn't land it much. The strikes condition people to block and command grab punishes that. Likewise, command grab conditions people to press buttons, jump and backdash and Bane's stikes punish that. His strikes and grapples go hand in hand and I definitely think he's a grappler, albeit a little unconventional.

Haven't seen you on the forum in awhile, IDK lol maybe you don't post that much.

 

[Doombawkz]

If Chief says so, then I'll tip my hat. Bane is a grappler, albeit I don't see how when command grab/neutral grab are his only reliable ones. I still say he is a striker/brawler, using the armor on his attacks and strikes to eat through the opposition, but as said if Chief says otherwise then I'll concede the point.

 

[chief713]

It's the utility that counts. Bane's command grab has stupid range and does stupid damage. Taking such a huge chunk of life in one move from the distance that it has and then having to hold the mixup afterwards will scare the shit out of your opponent and open them up to normals.

Also, my opinion isn't better than yours or anything and I don't think you're exactly wrong. But as someone who always plays grapplers, Bane just feels like one to me personally. Honestly, I think it's just playstyles. You don't HAVE to use command grab to be effective with Bane (though relying on it so scarcely will make it increasingly harder to beat better opponents), but like I've said before in the Bane forums, if you're not giving your opponents a reason to be afraid of it, then they're getting by easily and know nothing of strength.

 

[volkmair]

I think its this fear of their throws that makes a grappler, either them having big damage themselves or leading to a big damage combo.

 

[Doombawkz]

Altough I agree Chief, I personally don't use command grab outside of oki and option selects. Don't get me wrong, as far as option selects go we have the literal perfect tool. Otherwise though, I feel in his neutral and combo game the uppercut and double punch have a better place.

 

[LOCO]

harley
killer frost
cyborg

all have command grabs too

doomsday has a grab string that cant be blocked

ehhh this is all that come to mind right now but since u like coomand grabs i thought u should take a not of theese too
they arnt grapplers tho

 

[Doombawkz]

doomsday has a grab string that cant be blocked

Yes, grabs traditionally cannot be blocked.

 

[LOCO]

Yes, grabs traditionally cannot be blocked.

obviously

but his grab is different because its a string

 

[Doombawkz]

obviously

but his grab is different because its a string

Many strings have grabs in them, as a matter of fact a lot of characters have strings into command grabs that cannot be blocked.
Bane's d.2xxCG, b.11xxCG, and b.2xxCG, for example. He also has b.1 normal throw which is unblockable and covered by the +12 in front of it.