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Where NRS are going wrong with the patches

Sonya has armor too, on df3. It doesnt bring her all the way across the screen, but it goes about half way, and it's safer on block than cage's kick. And like iniquity mentioned, she can just fly over alot of zoning anyway with db4... which she also has armor on? Sonya's armor was less necessary than JC's imo.
 

kandehbar

The Gryphon
I play as Shang Tsung, you don't have to tell me about aggravating match ups against characters who are good at everything and aren't particularly bad at anything. I don't agree with Reptile's EX Armor for a second, I Don't agree with Sub Zero's EX Armor for a second. Ducking state? Of course, Armor? HELL THE FUCK NO.

Perhaps I have been too extreme in saying he doesn't need it particularly. I thought the character was fine before it, and yes it does improve him, but then again there wasn't really enough time for anyone to actually figure him out to the bone before that patch happened. Like I said, what this stems from is a general lack of agreement on how they're handling armor and making it really a "bail-out" rather than yes, a high reward move that takes meter, but also the one that should take skill and timing.
Well subzero didnt have armor on anything and his wake ups arnt that good cause at close range clone wiff and projectiles can beat slide on wake up
For reptile they made his dash incredibly punishable so they gave him compensation. It shouldnt matter any cause ex foward skull beats armor. I think these buff aren't broken at all. well maybe online warriors will be pissed but online is bullshyt anyway
 

Raiman

Noob
Against Kitana and Reptile? You bet. Those are rough matchups. Even with the armor, it's downright aggravating staying on them. They both zone him out and slip away from him without too much trouble.

Kitana's a 4-6
Reptile's a 3-7; even if you can pressure Reptile, elbow dash is a 6 frame slip away. Cage's D1 is 6 frames. Hate this MU.
reptiles dash is 5 frames, most people seem to think its 6
 

Fenro

Nordic myth
JC EX Shadow Kick Armor for example
Im sorry but cage really REALLY needed this to close in on those turtles/zoners say what you will but i think this "buff" was all but unnecessary.


extreme frame fix on low hat
To be honest kung lao doesn´t need the low hat so much as many think, you only come off as some one that has learned kung lao mainly relying on the lowhat and now pretty much salty about the nerf.
 

CY MasterHavik

Master of Chaos and Jax
For your other suggestions, Jax is already pretty beast, as has been shown many times over by CD Jr. who actually put time into him. If we're gonna argue for Scorpion wake ups, where is Shang? Where is Quan Chi? There are a few more characters that enter that discussion that could use "better and safer wake ups" but that's not how it works. Shang hneeds to keep you off him, if he can't he pays, that's part of his game. His only safe wake up option is EX Soul Steal, for meter, so why can't Scorpion's be EX Teleport?

Also, to the other guy, hit me? For what? For having an opinion? For actually taking time to play the game and form some sort of insight about it?
I just want to talk about the Jax part. His Jax is really good. But Jax didn't become a force until we got that armor on the dash punch. Now Jax is dangerous. But still lacks good combo damage and a true way to setup combos.
 

kandehbar

The Gryphon
I just want to talk about the Jax part. His Jax is really good. But Jax didn't become a force until we got that armor on the dash punch. Now Jax is dangerous. But still lacks good combo damage and a true way to setup combos.
Ground pound cancel works wonders...... jax is the C viper of mk
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Now, I disagree with some of the sentiments in this thread regarding armored slide being OP and whatnot, but I have been thinking of something. Watching the NRS in-house tourney yesterday, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say none of them are very good at this game. So what exactly are they going off of? Apparently the team at NRS isn't exactly filled with players knowing the intricacies of the fighting system. How can they be releasing balance patches when they can't test its balance themselves?

I would actually rather what the game post-patch will be like as opposed to what it is now, but this thought has been bothering me.
 
I am going to address all of this talk coming to me for saying that JC EX Armor was unnecessary. I don't have a move full screen that contributes to me being able to basically say "fuck it" and just travel the full screen, completely nullifying the efforts of a good zoner like Shang Tsung. When I do get in, I get the reward. That's how Cage used to be. He has UNPARALLELED rush down in this game with all the frame traps in his disposal, not to mention that almost every one of his BnBs can be finished with a nut punch for more pressure. Now, as a rushdown character he has to work to get in, that's what makes him balanced. Yes, he will struggle against some characters, but that's always the case with most and this is a very match-up heavy game. What EX Armor gives him is that "fuck it" button that just gives him a head above certain match ups. He already has the fastest regular dash in the game, and yes, getting in is part of a challenge with a good rush down character. EX Armor throws all of that away because some people went "WAH, I actually need to work to pressure someone in certain match-ups now, change that NRS!!!" Tough shit. I don't bitch or cry about anything, I just said that I thought it was unnecessary, I'll still deal with it.

I'm sorry, there will never be a perfectly balanced game because for that to happen each character will be identical. There need to be tier lists and such and each character should have strength AND weaknesses, not one or the other. And MK has done a good job of that so far. Yes, some characters by design will be better than others, but that's part of it being a fighting game. And we keep saying all these things but look at CD JR.'s Jax. Or listen to him say that all people crying for Rain buff or change have no idea what they're talking about, and I completely agree with him.

For your other suggestions, Jax is already pretty beast, as has been shown many times over by CD Jr. who actually put time into him. If we're gonna argue for Scorpion wake ups, where is Shang? Where is Quan Chi? There are a few more characters that enter that discussion that could use "better and safer wake ups" but that's not how it works. Shang hneeds to keep you off him, if he can't he pays, that's part of his game. His only safe wake up option is EX Soul Steal, for meter, so why can't Scorpion's be EX Teleport?

Also, to the other guy, hit me? For what? For having an opinion? For actually taking time to play the game and form some sort of insight about it?
THIS!
i speak as an online only player (kitana,sonya) and the second reason for droping the game was (after lao) cage,s red kick, u explain it very well in ur post!
a rushdown char has 2 work to get in, a good zoner has to work to zone well, but the red kick destroys every good zoning, the last 10 matches against JC online players was so ridic. and i needed more than 2 hands to facepalm very hard.
they can use it at fullscreen (LOL) with fullarmor the whole animation (LOL) and it is NOT crouchable.. and what is that mean?
right, they (can) (ab)use it, they just can do it random and they are in, no matter what, on hit on block or on whiff, they are in, not every char can punish it hard, with kitana she can just do throw..at least online
its too much, especially online u CANT react so well against that crap, that means i have to be careful at fullscreen, to be able to BLOCK IT ON REACTION? (LOL)
and they can ALLWAYS do red kicks, because of cages pokes that builds so much meter on hit or even on block.. (LOL) and his green fireballs, they dont suck like a lot says, they are GREAT because they build tons of meter!
the fireball from baraka sucks but not cages, his fireballs are actualy very good, u cant crouch it or jump, depends wich of both of them.

if the red kick dosnt go fullscreen, maybe mide range or like the regular one, that would be ok, but so its just ridic.
and its too fast, like nightwolfs shoulder.. other LOL, thats 2 much, it became,s ridic.
fullarmor,fullscreen,faster than light that things should not be, not only in mortak kombat, in every serius competitive fighting games!

after eating random and braindead red kicks, i just smle put the disc out of the ps3 and say BYE BYE..
 
THIS!
i speak as an online only player (kitana,sonya) and the second reason for droping the game was (after lao) cage,s red kick, u explain it very well in ur post!
a rushdown char has 2 work to get in, a good zoner has to work to zone well, but the red kick destroys every good zoning, the last 10 matches against JC online players was so ridic. and i needed more than 2 hands to facepalm very hard.
they can use it at fullscreen (LOL) with fullarmor the whole animation (LOL) and it is NOT crouchable.. and what is that mean?
right, they (can) (ab)use it, they just can do it random and they are in, no matter what, on hit on block or on whiff, they are in, not every char can punish it hard, with kitana she can just do throw..at least online
its too much, especially online u CANT react so well against that crap, that means i have to be careful at fullscreen, to be able to BLOCK IT ON REACTION? (LOL)
and they can ALLWAYS do red kicks, because of cages pokes that builds so much meter on hit or even on block.. (LOL) and his green fireballs, they dont suck like a lot says, they are GREAT because they build tons of meter!
the fireball from baraka sucks but not cages, his fireballs are actualy very good, u cant crouch it or jump, depends wich of both of them.

if the red kick dosnt go fullscreen, maybe mide range or like the regular one, that would be ok, but so its just ridic.
and its too fast, like nightwolfs shoulder.. other LOL, thats 2 much, it became,s ridic.
fullarmor,fullscreen,faster than light that things should not be, not only in mortak kombat, in every serius competitive fighting games!

after eating random and braindead red kicks, i just smle put the disc out of the ps3 and say BYE BYE..
i think the reason for the red kick was the sub-zero matchup and im fine with it. just block it, its pretty easy to punish. i mean, you know whats coming when you see JC has meter on the other screen side.
 

D-MyzE

Noob
THIS!
i speak as an online only player (kitana,sonya) and the second reason for droping the game was (after lao) cage,s red kick, u explain it very well in ur post!
a rushdown char has 2 work to get in, a good zoner has to work to zone well, but the red kick destroys every good zoning, the last 10 matches against JC online players was so ridic. and i needed more than 2 hands to facepalm very hard.
they can use it at fullscreen (LOL) with fullarmor the whole animation (LOL) and it is NOT crouchable.. and what is that mean?
right, they (can) (ab)use it, they just can do it random and they are in, no matter what, on hit on block or on whiff, they are in, not every char can punish it hard, with kitana she can just do throw..at least online
its too much, especially online u CANT react so well against that crap, that means i have to be careful at fullscreen, to be able to BLOCK IT ON REACTION? (LOL)
and they can ALLWAYS do red kicks, because of cages pokes that builds so much meter on hit or even on block.. (LOL) and his green fireballs, they dont suck like a lot says, they are GREAT because they build tons of meter!
the fireball from baraka sucks but not cages, his fireballs are actualy very good, u cant crouch it or jump, depends wich of both of them.

if the red kick dosnt go fullscreen, maybe mide range or like the regular one, that would be ok, but so its just ridic.
and its too fast, like nightwolfs shoulder.. other LOL, thats 2 much, it became,s ridic.
fullarmor,fullscreen,faster than light that things should not be, not only in mortak kombat, in every serius competitive fighting games!

after eating random and braindead red kicks, i just smle put the disc out of the ps3 and say BYE BYE..
If the Cage you are fighting is doing random EX Shadow kicks you're lucky. You should be able to block that, grab a quick snack, and still have to time to come back and punish, even online.
 

aj1701

Noob
i speak as an online only player (kitana,sonya) and the second reason for droping the game was (after lao) cage,s red kick, u explain it very well in ur post!
Gah. I'm an online only player maining Kitana as well. Red kick is a pain, but its not hard to learn how to deal with it. He doesn't have a lot of options but to use it to get in, so you should know its coming.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
The armoured red kick helps him against Sub-Zero, for one thing, because lifeleads are very important in that matchup, and Cage can basically make the Sub-Zero choose between building meter with clones and iceballs or maitaining the lifelead. He can't really do both at the same time because of red kick having armour.

It actually adds more depth to the matchup. You guys are forgetting that the red kick isn't all that helpful against a lot of characters because it just pushes them back to a range they can spam projectiles from again. Just let him waste his meter so he doesn't have any for ex forceball traps later on when he does get in.
 

JennyCage

t('.'t)
I personally don't believe NRS has the capacity to understand why some characters are overpowered/underpowered.

NRS believes:
Kung Lao's spin having a 6 frame startup is fair when some characters don't even have 6 frame low pokes.
Reptile's elbow dash having a 6 frame startup is fair.
Nightwolf, Johnny Cage, Reptile and Sub-Zero should be able to close the gap from fullscreen, but not Baraka.
Kano upball and Cage flipkick are the same move, but only one of them should be punishable on block.
Kabal's projectiles should be unstuffable and as spammable as Skarlet's kunais.

Please excuse me if I sound cynical, but I can't help it. After 5 months of dealing with shit like this, I don't exactly have much faith in NRS having an epiphany of logic. But whatever, most people don't agree with my opinions anyway, so maybe NRS is smart and I'm just dumb.
 
If the Cage you are fighting is doing random EX Shadow kicks you're lucky. You should be able to block that, grab a quick snack, and still have to time to come back and punish, even online.
let me give u an example:
can u imagine ken and ryu would have an ex shoryuken that go forward,fullscreen and with armor?
a very very funny thing, a funny joke, right?
in mk this type of jokes are reality..
 

Saint

Noob
let me give u an example:
can u imagine ken and ryu would have an ex shoryuken that go forward,fullscreen and with armor?
a very very funny thing, a funny joke, right?
in mk this type of jokes are reality..
They are different games, that doesn't even make sense, you can't compare different games to eachother like that.

That's like saying, can you imagine a chopper gunner in counterstrike 1.6? A very very funny thing, a funny joke, right?

In CoD this type of jokes are reality.
 

Griefa

Noob
Are you seriously complaining about a company patching (i.e FIXING) their game? NRS is one of the few companies that actually care about their community enough to consistently work on and test their product even after completion. Nothing they've done so far (except for that one upball incident) was anywhere near over the top or too drastic. They are slightly tweaking the game to make it as balanced and enjoyable as possible, and they are doing an excellent job at it.

Anyone who agrees with the OP obviously hasn't played one of the thousands of games that was completely abandoned by the developers post release. This, along with a few others is the exception. And honestly, if you can't "learn matchups" in the couple months between patches then you need to find a new genre. Is having 9 extra frames of recovery gonna change your game that much? Well, maybe if you just spam low hats all day, but for most people it will take maybe a week of adjusting to at a casual rate.

Patching is a good thing. DLC is also good. NRS is doing an amazing job and truthfully, we should all be hanging from their nuts at this point.
 

Sentry_Gun

Target Acquired
let me give u an example:
can u imagine ken and ryu would have an ex shoryuken that go forward,fullscreen and with armor?
a very very funny thing, a funny joke, right?
in mk this type of jokes are reality..
Really?......Really?.......If you want this game to be like Street Fighter so much, why don't you just leave and go play Street Fighter.
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
Are you seriously complaining about a company patching (i.e FIXING) their game? NRS is one of the few companies that actually care about their community enough to consistently work on and test their product even after completion. Nothing they've done so far (except for that one upball incident) was anywhere near over the top or too drastic. They are slightly tweaking the game to make it as balanced and enjoyable as possible, and they are doing an excellent job at it.

Anyone who agrees with the OP obviously hasn't played one of the thousands of games that was completely abandoned by the developers post release. This, along with a few others is the exception. And honestly, if you can't "learn matchups" in the couple months between patches then you need to find a new genre. Is having 9 extra frames of recovery gonna change your game that much? Well, maybe if you just spam low hats all day, but for most people it will take maybe a week of adjusting to at a casual rate.

Patching is a good thing. DLC is also good. NRS is doing an amazing job and truthfully, we should all be hanging from their nuts at this point.
:congrats:

Also, lol@ EX shadow kick being game breaking
 

D-MyzE

Noob
I personally don't believe NRS has the capacity to understand why some characters are overpowered/underpowered.

NRS believes:
Kung Lao's spin having a 6 frame startup is fair when some characters don't even have 6 frame low pokes.
Reptile's elbow dash having a 6 frame startup is fair.
Nightwolf, Johnny Cage, Reptile and Sub-Zero should be able to close the gap from fullscreen, but not Baraka.
Kano upball and Cage flipkick are the same move, but only one of them should be punishable on block.
Kabal's projectiles should be unstuffable and as spammable as Skarlet's kunais.

Please excuse me if I sound cynical, but I can't help it. After 5 months of dealing with shit like this, I don't exactly have much faith in NRS having an epiphany of logic. But whatever, most people don't agree with my opinions anyway, so maybe NRS is smart and I'm just dumb.
There's nothing wrong with a move having a 6 frame startup, as long as its punishable--which KL's spin easily is and Reptile's dash soon will be--you just have to bait it.
I completely agree that Baraka's ex charge should go fullscreen, but not because other characters have it.
Kano's upball is more punishable, but he also has 10x better zoning and doesn't do bad up close, while JC relies on being in your face.

It's all about balancing each individual character's tools based on their arsenal, not saying "other characters have this so I should have it too"

edit: also, about kabals projectile properties, I'm pretty sure that's a glitch so hopefully NRS will take that out
 

JacopeX

Playing: Injustice, Persona, Blazblue, and MK
let me give u an example:
can u imagine ken and ryu would have an ex shoryuken that go forward,fullscreen and with armor?
a very very funny thing, a funny joke, right?
in mk this type of jokes are reality..
Seriously.

Why are you even here? And why do you speak as if SF mechanics are the right mechanics to go with? There is no such thing as the perfect fighting mechanics, it's all based on gamer's preference.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
reptiles dash is 5 frames, most people seem to think its 6
It's 6. People thought it was 5 because Garcia mentioned it had 5 STARTUP frames. DrDogg's data lists the first ACTIVE frame.

And I've yet to buy that Reptile vs Cage is a 7-3 Reptile, Iniquity.