Universal MU-Chart and Mathematical Tierlist

This has got to be discussed right here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1777450635731869787

Thoughts???

 

I don't really care what friend groups discuss amongst each other, I have enough discernment based on my own past experiences to know what is right and what is not regardless what the current popular narratives are which is a reason I tend to be disliked in this community and why I tend to avoid these types of discussions.

Ok but... if Smoke is so good and these guys are all in on a conspiracy to downplay him, where are the results? Shouldn't he be winning all the tourneys?

I'm not saying you should blindly believe what other people say, but it feels like "I personally lose to Smoke" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, lol.

 

no way shao beats johnny 6-4 bro

 

That's the matchup chart I'm most interested in right there. Which of Sub's matches do you disagree with? The main one for me is Cage - I think it's even or in Sub's favor until Cage either gets Sub in the corner or has Star Power.

Johnny can be tough because he's just such a strong character, but I agree: played optimally by Sub, it's even, especially since Sub can instant air dive kick punish low hat, which still seems to be Johnny's best assist. I'd say that Sub's only harder MUs are ones where the opponent can easily get past his zoning, like Omni and maybe Peacemaker (still feeling this MU out). Scorpion to a lesser degree because he can get around zoning but his other tools are weak and Sub can always punish random spears. Quan can also be annoying with his new keep away move. And Ermac might be tough since his teleport leads to a combo. Against other traditional top tiers I'd say it's even, characters like Kenshi, Raiden, Sindel, Liu Kang, and everyone else he beats. This is all assuming Sub uses Khameleon, of course. I think Janet will be almost as good for him in time, maybe even equally good, once corner puppet lockdown is mastered. It's nice to see Sub as high as he is in this list, but he should be higher, imo, and would be with those tweaks to his chart.

And to those talking about Tanya, Sub+Khameleon beats Tanya+Goro--played a long set of that recently. Might be different if Tanya used Khameleon, but haven't found many of those players online.

 

Yes, if Sub plays the match right, it can not only feel even, but also feel like it's in Sub's favor at times. Between D3, S2, Klone, Ice Punch and other longer-range normals, strings and specials, he can fluster Cage's approach like few other characters can, forcing Cage to either jump or armor. The match switches if Cage either corners Sub or gets Hype activated, but that's true for every other character too.

I have yet to lose to a JC player as Sub-Zero because I approach that match the way I did in MK9.

As for the other matches, I agree with you - with Khameleon, Sub-Zero winds up going pretty even with all the top-tiers because he gets a combo from anywhere on screen stemming from a safe Slide, an armored launcher, a true 50/50 mix with the Mileena disguise and safety on his unsafe Overhead. And Janet is amazing for Sub too.

One thing I am happy with is that Sub does seem to have options in every match and isn't limited to just placing someone in the corner and killing them there, even though he's good at that in this game.

 

Yes, if Sub plays the match right, it can not only feel even, but also feel like it's in Sub's favor at times. Between D3, S2, Klone, Ice Punch and other longer-range normals, strings and specials, he can fluster Cage's approach like few other characters can, forcing Cage to either jump or armor. The match switches if Cage either corners Sub or gets Hype activated, but that's true for every other character too.

I have yet to lose to a JC player as Sub-Zero because I approach that match the way I did in MK9.

As for the other matches, I agree with you - with Khameleon, Sub-Zero winds up going pretty even with all the top-tiers because he gets a combo from anywhere on screen stemming from a safe Slide, an armored launcher, a true 50/50 mix with the Mileena disguise and safety on his unsafe Overhead. And Janet is amazing for Sub too.

One thing I am happy with is that Sub does seem to have options in every match and isn't limited to just placing someone in the corner and killing them there, even though he's good at that in this game.

What is your opinion on Reptile matchup?

 

What is your opinion on Reptile matchup?

As long as Sub doesn't try to challenge forceball with regular ice punch, he wins. Divekick and enhanced slide beat forceball, divekick beats B3 footsies from Reptile, and with the right kameo, Sub can full combo punish the gap in Reptile's B3 string on reaction. Perhaps even worse for Reptile, most of his poke moves move his body forward, so he easily gets baited into trapping himself in klone from D1/D3~klone from Sub, and Sub can armor break Reptile on wakeup meterlessly since his armored death spin is so slow.

 

Its so refreshing to hear people not completely downplay sub.

 

I’m honestly worried for peacemaker players. What are they going to do when their brain dead character gets nerfed and have to go back to complete obscurity and mediocrity

 

I’m honestly worried for peacemaker players. What are they going to do when their brain dead character gets nerfed and have to go back to complete obscurity and mediocrity

IMO I think the worst that will happen is that he will be on Omni-man's level - not busted but definitely still a very solid pick.

 

They reallyyyyyyy like kenshi in Brazil. Between yesterday and today. I've been loaded down with kenshi. Lol they are good with him at that

 

Wonder if this list changed at all with the new patch