The_Riddler
Noob
I took a some time to look at all of Raiden's Thunder God strings, the 8 for which he can hold the last input and get additional hits of lightning.
Properties
First, here are the things that all those strings have in common:
Description of each property listed below:
Hit Level: self-explanatory
Chip Damage: the total amount of chip done on block assuming full lightning hold
Gaps: are there gaps in which the opponent can enter an input?
Interruptible (if Gaps = Yes): are there moves that can actually interrupt the string (which ones)?
Armor-Breaking (if Gaps = Yes): does the lightning break armored interrupts?
X-Ray Breaking (if Gaps = Yes): does the lightning stuff X-Rays (if so, which ones)?
Safe on Block: is the string punishable on block after full lightning hold?
Punished By: type of move that Raiden is vulnerable to if opponent blocks the full lightning hold
String #1: 1,1,2(hold)
Hit Level: H,M,M
Chip Damage: 3.0%
Gaps: No
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 9-frame advancing move
String #2: 1,1,2,2(hold)
Hit Level: H,M,M,M
Total Chip Damage: 5.5%
Gaps: Yes - after 1,2,2
Interruptible: Yes (13-frame advancing move)
Armor-Breaking: Inconclusive**
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Sub-Zero, Erron Black, Raiden, and Goro)
Safe on Block: Yes
Punished By: Nothing
String #3: b+1,1,2(hold)
Hit Level: M,M,M
Chip Damage: 3.5%
Gaps: None
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 9-frame advancing move
String #4: b+1,1,2,2(hold)
Hit Level: M,M,M,M
Total Chip Damage: 6.0%
Gaps: Yes - after b+1,1,2
Interruptible: Yes (13-frame advancing move)
Armor-Breaking: Inconclusive**
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Sub-Zero, Erron Black, Raiden, and Goro)
Safe on Block: Yes
Punished By: Nothing
String #5: f+1,2,b+2(hold)
Hit Level: M,M,M
Chip Damage: 3.5%
Gaps: None
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 5-frame advancing move
String #6: f+2,2+4(hold)
Hit Level: M,M
Chip Damage: 3.25%
Gaps: None
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: Nothing
String #7: 3,2+4(hold)
Hit Level: H,M
Chip Damage: 3.25%
Gaps: Yes – after 3***
Interruptible: No
Armor-Breaking: Yes
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Erron Black and Goro)
Safe on Block: Yes
Punished By: Nothing
String #8: b+3,2(hold)
Hit Level: L,M
Chip Damage: 3.25%
Gaps: Yes – after b+3***
Interruptible: No
Armor-Breaking: Yes
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Jax, Scorpion, Kung Jin, Johnny Cage, Erron Black, Liu Kang, Kotal Kahn, Reptile, Ferra/Torr, Raiden, Quan Chi, and Goro)
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 5-frame advancing move
** The lightning is always armor-breaking, theoretically, but most armored specials (with reversed inputs) seem to blow these gaps up because of the spacing, timing, and hitbox attributes that come with the mid-string teleport. I have yet to determine if there are any armored specials in the game that would actually be stuffed, without going through each one individually.
*** Jedi-like reflexes are required to attempt an interrupt, but it doesn’t matter because you will stuff everything outside of certain X-Rays.
Commentary
1,1,2(2) and b+1,1,2(2)
These two strings are very interesting and have a bunch of unique dynamics to consider.
You can do the first 3 inputs and hold on the third to get the lightning ticks. While you’re holding, you can choose to end the string, cancel into a special, or do the final input (and hold again). The timing to finish the string is a bit tight; you basically have to release and re-hold 2 right as the last tick of lightning from the first 2 is hitting. If you plan on using Thunder God at a high level, this is something you should probably learn how to do. I’ll try to explain why this may end up being important for Raiden players.
Both strings are quite interruptible on block by a decent portion of the cast as you come from the other side of the screen after the teleport. However, your opponent will need to effectively reverse inputs in order to accomplish that, and you can confuse them by not finishing the string. In the latter case, they have to react with normally directed inputs or they will get a move they don’t want.
There are only a few frames (2-3) during which your opponent has time to recognize whether or not you did the fourth input. If you do the full string and they guess right, you’ll most likely get interrupted. If they attempt to interrupt and they guess wrong, you’ll most likely get a whiff punish opportunity if you did not teleport or the lightning will hit if you did teleport. If you don’t teleport Reptile, Sub-Zero, Kung Lao, Jax, and Goro can punish you with specials (but, again, they have to recognize that you didn’t finish the string). The full 4-input string with maximum hold is 100% safe on block based on my analysis.
Unfortunately, most characters can also jump out of the full string, and you will whiff after the teleport while eating a jump-in punch for full combo. It may be possible to jump on reaction, but it’s an incredibly small reaction window and I’m not sure if human beings are going to be doing that or not. There are mind games here because you can do the 3-input string into Rising Thunder (db3) and you will hit them if they think you are going to teleport and try to jump out. EX Rising Thunder will give you a juggle.
On block, if you cancel the lightning ticks right before teleporting and go into a special like Electrocute (df2), there is a small gap. You can get blown up during this gap by fast armored specials, but normal or standard specials won’t interrupt. Considering all of the mind games going on here all at once, your opponent would be taking a huge risk to assume you’re going to cancel and spend a bar.
D’vorah and Kitana are able to X-Ray after blocking the first series of lightning ticks, and you will get hit no matter what – it doesn’t matter if you end the string, cancel into a special, or do the teleport.
In the corner, things get even trickier as Raiden will appear back in front of your opponent rather than behind if you do the teleport. A lot of things seem to be wonky with these strings when you get near the corner.
3,2+4 and b+3, 2
These string have small gaps after the first hit, but they essentially act like frame traps. Your opponent will not be able to get a normal or a special. All armored/enhanced specials, including Reptile ex dash and Kung Lao ex spin, get stuffed. The only option your opponent has is to X-Ray after the first hit with one of the characters that won't get stuffed (see list above in the string properties). The window is very small and I don’t envision this being a huge problem, but you can always do just the first input, bait out the X-Ray, and punish accordingly.
Assuming the full lightning hold, b+3,2 can only be punished on block by a 5-frame advancing move (Reptile ex slide). Moves with 6-frame startups (Kung Lao ex spin) will not punish it. Outside of that one exception, these two strings are safe on block.
f+1,2,b+2 and f+2,2+4
These are the only two lightning strings that jail on block. Reptile can punish f+1,2,b+2 with ex slide, but other than that these string are not punishable. They retain the other properties of the lightning hold – you can hit confirm quite easily and cancel the lightning into any special.
For f+1,2,b+2 you are left at tremendous advantage on hit if you tap b+2 rather than hold. It grants a close-range knockdown and you are able to move before your opponent even hits the ground. I’m sure we’ll see people utilizing this.
Conclusions
There are a number of nuances that people will need to understand in order to master this variation, mostly pertaining to the teleport strings. A lot of it boils down to mind games and outwitting your opponent. If you are in a position to apply pressure, you can constantly keep them guessing but you will also have to do some guessing yourself. It becomes quite interesting, because these are more like 25/25/25/25 situations rather than 50/50s. It’s a very engaging dynamic if you choose to go down that road. Both 1,1,2,2 and b+1,1,2,2 have their uses – b+1 is a mid and does more chip; 1 is a high but it has better range.
The best of the 8 lightning strings is f+2,2+4 (as most TG players have already recognized). It’s mid-hitting it moves you forward a good amount, and it is 100% safe on block. Doing f+2 leaves you 0 on block, so you have the option to mix things up by repeating f+2 rather than going into the lightning. If your opponent lets go of block to try to poke you out of that, you can always finish the string and hit confirm into full combo.
I think one of the overlooked aspects of these strings are their usefulness as pokes. For example, you can do f+2,2+4 from past 3/4 screen and get a safe mid poke. Granted, it's not extremely fast, but it is a poke nonetheless and it will also catch jumpers. After you hit someone with a full lightning hold and they are sent full-screen, you can do a short run into f+2, 2+4 and you will hit them as they get up - it's not unavoidable but could be useful. I'm working on ways to force people to choose between blocking the lightning poke after knockdown or risking a wake-up. Having them block the lightning is great for chip and meter-building.
Please let me know if anything is incorrect or if I missed something.
Properties
First, here are the things that all those strings have in common:
- On block, they push the opponent back and create space
- On hit they give full-screen knockdowns after a full hold
- You can tap the last input rather than hold; on hit this grants a knockdown at around sweep range and leaves you at advantage
- They can be special cancelled during lightning ticks and are hit-confirmable
- The lightning comes out even if you whiff the start of the string
- In open space, the lightning hits from about half-screen and hits mid
Description of each property listed below:
Hit Level: self-explanatory
Chip Damage: the total amount of chip done on block assuming full lightning hold
Gaps: are there gaps in which the opponent can enter an input?
Interruptible (if Gaps = Yes): are there moves that can actually interrupt the string (which ones)?
Armor-Breaking (if Gaps = Yes): does the lightning break armored interrupts?
X-Ray Breaking (if Gaps = Yes): does the lightning stuff X-Rays (if so, which ones)?
Safe on Block: is the string punishable on block after full lightning hold?
Punished By: type of move that Raiden is vulnerable to if opponent blocks the full lightning hold
String #1: 1,1,2(hold)
Hit Level: H,M,M
Chip Damage: 3.0%
Gaps: No
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 9-frame advancing move
String #2: 1,1,2,2(hold)
Hit Level: H,M,M,M
Total Chip Damage: 5.5%
Gaps: Yes - after 1,2,2
Interruptible: Yes (13-frame advancing move)
Armor-Breaking: Inconclusive**
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Sub-Zero, Erron Black, Raiden, and Goro)
Safe on Block: Yes
Punished By: Nothing
String #3: b+1,1,2(hold)
Hit Level: M,M,M
Chip Damage: 3.5%
Gaps: None
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 9-frame advancing move
String #4: b+1,1,2,2(hold)
Hit Level: M,M,M,M
Total Chip Damage: 6.0%
Gaps: Yes - after b+1,1,2
Interruptible: Yes (13-frame advancing move)
Armor-Breaking: Inconclusive**
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Sub-Zero, Erron Black, Raiden, and Goro)
Safe on Block: Yes
Punished By: Nothing
String #5: f+1,2,b+2(hold)
Hit Level: M,M,M
Chip Damage: 3.5%
Gaps: None
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 5-frame advancing move
String #6: f+2,2+4(hold)
Hit Level: M,M
Chip Damage: 3.25%
Gaps: None
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: Nothing
String #7: 3,2+4(hold)
Hit Level: H,M
Chip Damage: 3.25%
Gaps: Yes – after 3***
Interruptible: No
Armor-Breaking: Yes
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Erron Black and Goro)
Safe on Block: Yes
Punished By: Nothing
String #8: b+3,2(hold)
Hit Level: L,M
Chip Damage: 3.25%
Gaps: Yes – after b+3***
Interruptible: No
Armor-Breaking: Yes
X-Ray Breaking: Yes (stuffs Jax, Scorpion, Kung Jin, Johnny Cage, Erron Black, Liu Kang, Kotal Kahn, Reptile, Ferra/Torr, Raiden, Quan Chi, and Goro)
Safe on Block: No
Punished By: 5-frame advancing move
** The lightning is always armor-breaking, theoretically, but most armored specials (with reversed inputs) seem to blow these gaps up because of the spacing, timing, and hitbox attributes that come with the mid-string teleport. I have yet to determine if there are any armored specials in the game that would actually be stuffed, without going through each one individually.
*** Jedi-like reflexes are required to attempt an interrupt, but it doesn’t matter because you will stuff everything outside of certain X-Rays.
Commentary
1,1,2(2) and b+1,1,2(2)
These two strings are very interesting and have a bunch of unique dynamics to consider.
You can do the first 3 inputs and hold on the third to get the lightning ticks. While you’re holding, you can choose to end the string, cancel into a special, or do the final input (and hold again). The timing to finish the string is a bit tight; you basically have to release and re-hold 2 right as the last tick of lightning from the first 2 is hitting. If you plan on using Thunder God at a high level, this is something you should probably learn how to do. I’ll try to explain why this may end up being important for Raiden players.
Both strings are quite interruptible on block by a decent portion of the cast as you come from the other side of the screen after the teleport. However, your opponent will need to effectively reverse inputs in order to accomplish that, and you can confuse them by not finishing the string. In the latter case, they have to react with normally directed inputs or they will get a move they don’t want.
There are only a few frames (2-3) during which your opponent has time to recognize whether or not you did the fourth input. If you do the full string and they guess right, you’ll most likely get interrupted. If they attempt to interrupt and they guess wrong, you’ll most likely get a whiff punish opportunity if you did not teleport or the lightning will hit if you did teleport. If you don’t teleport Reptile, Sub-Zero, Kung Lao, Jax, and Goro can punish you with specials (but, again, they have to recognize that you didn’t finish the string). The full 4-input string with maximum hold is 100% safe on block based on my analysis.
Unfortunately, most characters can also jump out of the full string, and you will whiff after the teleport while eating a jump-in punch for full combo. It may be possible to jump on reaction, but it’s an incredibly small reaction window and I’m not sure if human beings are going to be doing that or not. There are mind games here because you can do the 3-input string into Rising Thunder (db3) and you will hit them if they think you are going to teleport and try to jump out. EX Rising Thunder will give you a juggle.
On block, if you cancel the lightning ticks right before teleporting and go into a special like Electrocute (df2), there is a small gap. You can get blown up during this gap by fast armored specials, but normal or standard specials won’t interrupt. Considering all of the mind games going on here all at once, your opponent would be taking a huge risk to assume you’re going to cancel and spend a bar.
D’vorah and Kitana are able to X-Ray after blocking the first series of lightning ticks, and you will get hit no matter what – it doesn’t matter if you end the string, cancel into a special, or do the teleport.
In the corner, things get even trickier as Raiden will appear back in front of your opponent rather than behind if you do the teleport. A lot of things seem to be wonky with these strings when you get near the corner.
3,2+4 and b+3, 2
These string have small gaps after the first hit, but they essentially act like frame traps. Your opponent will not be able to get a normal or a special. All armored/enhanced specials, including Reptile ex dash and Kung Lao ex spin, get stuffed. The only option your opponent has is to X-Ray after the first hit with one of the characters that won't get stuffed (see list above in the string properties). The window is very small and I don’t envision this being a huge problem, but you can always do just the first input, bait out the X-Ray, and punish accordingly.
Assuming the full lightning hold, b+3,2 can only be punished on block by a 5-frame advancing move (Reptile ex slide). Moves with 6-frame startups (Kung Lao ex spin) will not punish it. Outside of that one exception, these two strings are safe on block.
f+1,2,b+2 and f+2,2+4
These are the only two lightning strings that jail on block. Reptile can punish f+1,2,b+2 with ex slide, but other than that these string are not punishable. They retain the other properties of the lightning hold – you can hit confirm quite easily and cancel the lightning into any special.
For f+1,2,b+2 you are left at tremendous advantage on hit if you tap b+2 rather than hold. It grants a close-range knockdown and you are able to move before your opponent even hits the ground. I’m sure we’ll see people utilizing this.
Conclusions
There are a number of nuances that people will need to understand in order to master this variation, mostly pertaining to the teleport strings. A lot of it boils down to mind games and outwitting your opponent. If you are in a position to apply pressure, you can constantly keep them guessing but you will also have to do some guessing yourself. It becomes quite interesting, because these are more like 25/25/25/25 situations rather than 50/50s. It’s a very engaging dynamic if you choose to go down that road. Both 1,1,2,2 and b+1,1,2,2 have their uses – b+1 is a mid and does more chip; 1 is a high but it has better range.
The best of the 8 lightning strings is f+2,2+4 (as most TG players have already recognized). It’s mid-hitting it moves you forward a good amount, and it is 100% safe on block. Doing f+2 leaves you 0 on block, so you have the option to mix things up by repeating f+2 rather than going into the lightning. If your opponent lets go of block to try to poke you out of that, you can always finish the string and hit confirm into full combo.
I think one of the overlooked aspects of these strings are their usefulness as pokes. For example, you can do f+2,2+4 from past 3/4 screen and get a safe mid poke. Granted, it's not extremely fast, but it is a poke nonetheless and it will also catch jumpers. After you hit someone with a full lightning hold and they are sent full-screen, you can do a short run into f+2, 2+4 and you will hit them as they get up - it's not unavoidable but could be useful. I'm working on ways to force people to choose between blocking the lightning poke after knockdown or risking a wake-up. Having them block the lightning is great for chip and meter-building.
Please let me know if anything is incorrect or if I missed something.
