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Throws

  • Thread starter Deleted member 5032
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NaughtySenpai

Kombatant
Let's say their poke is -5 and yours is a 7-frame start-up. That means they have 2 frames to input their throw to catch your counter-poke. They're negative, you try to take advantage of those negative frames, but you get blown up. That's fucked up.
Why are people discussing the topic over 7 pages and after that people who complain about throws still don't know how they work and use arguments that aren't based in reality?

You could've gone to training mode for not even 2 minutes and found out what you just wrote is bullshit.

That's not how throws work.

It's the same shit as those fucking Scorpion teleport threads where people insist that hellport cancel is a 50/50. Makes your fucking brain hurt.
 

Sanjo

Noob
Ok. Here's a few things some people need to understand.
  1. STOP taking the online environment as base to judge the validity of the throw system. Opponent is abusing the lag not the throw system. It gets onto your nerves? Deal with it, either by stopping playing online or by adapting your gameplay (a bad idea bc you would come up with online tactics that will get you blown up).
  2. The fact that throws eat normals, even crouching ones, is on purpose to avoid the d1 3 or 4 fest.
Stop crying and try To overcome any problem you Encounter. Get into the lab and search for solutions. It's called levelling up.
 
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Deleted member 35141

Guest
Here:


4 minutes and you guys can have an actual discussion without just making shit up.
Or you can actually read and realize the conversation has turned to the property of throws during ONLINE MATCHES and not in practice mode.
Or as the poster above says just stop playing online.

HELLO MOST PEOPLE DONT HAVE LOCAL SCENES FOR FUCKS SAKE
 

4x4lo8o

Warrior
Ok. Here's a few things some people need to understand.
  1. STOP taking the online environment as base to judge the validity of the throw system. Opponent is abusing the lag not the throw system. It gets onto your nerves? Deal with it, either by stopping playing online or by adapting your gameplay (a bad idea bc you would come up with online tactics that will get you blown up).
This is a bad take imo. For tons of people online is the only environment in which they experience the game. There's nothing wrong with people wanting the game to play well in the environment where they play the game. There's even tons of online tournaments and offline rankings and stuff that ties to online. And it's not just about abusing lag either - some mechanics fair worse than others in online environments and that's at least partially a problem with the mechanic.

If online is bad it's bad for the tournament scene and the game in general
 
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Deleted member 5032

Guest
If their poke is -5 and your counter poke is 7 frames, you need to be an entire 8 frames late with your counter poke to lose to a throw.
Oops, yes, you're right. I have no idea what I was thinking with that math. However, online delay is a minimum of 4 frames, correct? Tack on 1-3 frames of monitor delay and we're at 5 frames, best case scenario. And assuming you're not a robot, you're going to have 1-5 frames of reaction delay. So, again, best case scenario is around 6 frames of delay. Which is where I think a lot of the frustration with online throws eating moves is coming from. It's creating an environment where throws feel like they are out-prioritizing everything, and where the window to tech is only a couple of frames. Against characters that can safely be neutral-crouched, it's not a huge deal, just don't participate in the throw system at all. But against characters that get 25%+ with their 9-frame mid, low, or overhead starters, it's just a hellish experience that feels borderline unavoidable.
 

Sanjo

Noob
Id just like to point out to all the "git gud" posters that this entire thread was made to be discussed within the online context. See the OP.
Building on what you just said, the problem is not "Throws are overpowered and need a nerf" but "Netcode needs an improvement cause the game is not what it's supposed to be online". And I will say it again : if you think that throws are too strong because you can't tech in time (your reactions are too slow) or because of the nature of the 50/50 1 2 (it's called mind game and it's the basis of fighting games), YES, go to the lab, practice and GET GOOD ! Hell, MK11 has a very good practice mode. USE IT.
 

Sanjo

Noob
On a more constructive note, here's how I practice REACTING to throws. It will only help you REACT to the throw animation, not save you from the 50/50, you have to make a read for that (which is different than a pure random guess, it's an educated guess)
1. Record 1: dash dash 2+4
Record 2: dash dash 1 (combo starting with 1 for the hand animation)
Record 3: dash dash d1 3 or 4
Record 4: dash dash n.jump
2. Replay: hidden and random
 

Gaxkang

Banned
Ok. Here's a few things some people need to understand.
  1. STOP taking the online environment as base to judge the validity of the throw system. Opponent is abusing the lag not the throw system. It gets onto your nerves? Deal with it, either by stopping playing online or by adapting your gameplay (a bad idea bc you would come up with online tactics that will get you blown up).
  2. The fact that throws eat normals, even crouching ones, is on purpose to avoid the d1 3 or 4 fest.
Stop crying and try To overcome any problem you Encounter. Get into the lab and search for solutions. It's called levelling up.
Unfortunately a bad online play will dog a game forever, really. Even right now the game is encouraging people to play Kombat League if they want to get goodies. And Kombat League has the triple whammy of limited variations, cord pullers, and bad online.

And a solution for online being basically to just find the maximum cheesiness and go from there...eh, I don't think that's healthy for a game either.

And the game still tends to be a D1 or D3fest (online at least, but see above yeah). And then there's how much a D1 can't even punish anyways. I still shake my head at how little punishment on block there is in the game, online anyways I guess.
 

NaughtySenpai

Kombatant
The biggest problem about "nerfing" throws would be how the whole game functions. OH/low mixups are super rare and almost all of the roster heavily relies in staggers and the resulting threat of throw to open people with shimmies and frametraps. If you can just mash the fuck out of pokes every time somebody is slighty negative, neutral or plus I guess it could make the game into a timeout fest.

I personally feel like throws shouldn't throw you out of startup frames, only on trade and recovery frames, but I haven't given it enough thought in regards to the meta to definitely say that that would be a good change.
 
he's not right
if they hit at the same time you'd trade.
I actually think normals outpriotitize throws. Its extremely hard to test though due to input buffer favoring the defender. Blocked d1 from raiden (-3) then throw (i10) loses to a Liu Kang F3 (i13) even though they should hit on the same frame from my testing.

Maybe I'm tripping but I've spent a half hour trying to check otherwise

Lemme consult the Elder Gods about this...
@16 Bit
Throws vs normal same first active frame, who wins?
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
I actually think normals outpriotitize throws. Its extremely hard to test though due to input buffer favoring the defender. Blocked d1 from raiden (-3) then throw (i10) loses to a Liu Kang F3 (i13) even though they should hit on the same frame from my testing.

Maybe I'm tripping but I've spent a half hour trying to check otherwise

Lemme consult the Elder Gods about this...
@16 Bit
Throws vs normal same first active frame, who wins?
I think this may have been one of the first developer tags I've ever seen (My own included in the past) where I think it is 100% warranted.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I actually think normals outpriotitize throws. Its extremely hard to test though due to input buffer favoring the defender. Blocked d1 from raiden (-3) then throw (i10) loses to a Liu Kang F3 (i13) even though they should hit on the same frame from my testing.

Maybe I'm tripping but I've spent a half hour trying to check otherwise

Lemme consult the Elder Gods about this...
@16 Bit
Throws vs normal same first active frame, who wins?
wrong tester to tag. she'll never come on here again according to her twitter.

you might as well of thrown a stone into the ocean hoping it would get to china.
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
The biggest problem about "nerfing" throws would be how the whole game functions. OH/low mixups are super rare and almost all of the roster heavily relies in staggers and the resulting threat of throw to open people with shimmies and frametraps.
You say this like it's inherently bad but I don't think it is. The meta doesn't have to be staggergrab staggergrab like it is now, if they adjust and increase the recovery of a few moves on each character in addition to adjusting frames on pokes then we can have a game that's about poking and punishing/whiff punishing high-risk high-reward moves instead of perpetual safety followed by 50/50 grabs.

There's nothing on an inherent level that's wrong with shifting the core of the meta, I personally don't like the staggergrab meta at all and would absolutely love to see it changed.
 

Gaxkang

Banned
View attachment 15414

NRS ...... PLEASE. Reveal your effing hitboxes.

I'm doing a d3 here and am CLEARLY plenty of distance away lol.

for reference.... the 3.00 MID is KANO's grab hitting me.
I think you're supposed to mash D2. :D

But easy on Kano, he needs everything he can get...throwing is like all he can do most of the time. :p

NRS is never gonna show the hitboxes or hurtboxes...I think it'd be too embarrassing looking. Just think what the hitbox of Erron's FB is.
 

Kanalratte

aka FROSTIE
MKX: guess OH / LOW
MK11: guess MID / THROW, if you decide to play safe block then and guess the Forward / back THROW :rolleyes: well played NRS
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
No meaning, people would prefer having to guess on a full combo from plus frames of cancels in a previous game vs. guessing on a throw in this one.
Well yeah that's silly, but I don't know why we have to have such a dominant guess-based mechanic at all. Strike/throw mixups are all well and good but there's other games that do them better, Tekken has throw tech windows like twice as long as MK's, not to mention that in T7 throws can be broken with a universal input besides command throws.