Throws

[Tony at Home]

Except it wouldnt. If that 10f is a high, you would beat it.

Read his post. In his example he's doing a standing 1 so it Absolutely Would.

 

[Tony at Home]

To summarize I dont think throws should ever "kounter" a normal.

This is actually asking that all normal moves in the game have throw invulnerability on startup.

 

[TakeAChance]

Read his post. In his example he's doing a standing 1 so it Absolutely Would.

Im reading YOUR post which said ANY 10f normal.

Also no, I just dont think throws should have mid properties against other active or startup frames. I want throws to serve their function which is opening up a blocking opponent, not punishing them for hitting normals. Thats what whiff punishing is for.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

This SAME situation would happen if your opponent pressed any other 10 frame button.

Throws don't magically get properties in laggy environments that other moves don't have.

So how does a 7 frame move lose to a 10 frame move after being like -3 cause of blocked d1, your not selling you concept very good

 

[Tony at Home]

So how does a 7 frame move lose to a 10 frame move after being like -3 cause of blocked d1, your not selling you concept very good

Because frame data. Nothing out of the ordinary is happening here. When two moves connect on the same frame you either trade or lose to the higher priority move.

 

[Juggs]

With 1 button tech covering forward and back throws it would be way too easy to tech imo.

That’s why there should be some visual indication of which throw is being performed. You shouldn’t make something harder by making it a guess and/or random. That’s an objectively lazy way to design a game, or anything for that matter. They could have made a slight animation indicating which throw was being performed. It would still be just as hard, but far more based on skill and reactions than luck.

I understand you usually can predict which way they’ll throw you, but that’s not always the case. And it also can be used against you on purpose.

Also, it’s a combination of everything a throw does that makes it being a true 50/50 unnecessary. They do 140 damage, have KB’s attached to most of them, counter throws act as true mids so you can be thrown out of most things, you can’t be blocking when you tech, have to guess to tech correctly, even if you tech correctly you still take a small amount of damage, and there’s basically zero benefit to teching a throw other than potentially not taking 140 damage. Like at the very least if a throw is teched, put the player who attempted the throw at -1 or something.

 

[Scoot Magee]

That’s why there should be some visual indication of which throw is being performed. You shouldn’t make something harder by making it a guess and/or random. That’s an objectively lazy way to design a game, or anything for that matter. They could have made a slight animation indicating which throw was being performed. It would still be just as hard, but far more based on skill and reactions than luck.

I understand you usually can predict which way they’ll throw you, but that’s not always the case. And it also can be used against you on purpose.

Also, it’s a combination of everything a throw does that makes it being a true 50/50 unnecessary. They do 140 damage, have KB’s attached to most of them, counter throws act as true mids so you can be thrown out of most things, you can’t be blocking when you tech, have to guess to tech correctly, even if you tech correctly you still take a small amount of damage, and there’s basically zero benefit to teching a throw other than potentially not taking 140 damage. Like at the very least if a throw is teched, put the player who attempted the throw at -1 or something.

The main benefit to teching a throw is being able to wait and see before making a decision but yes that does involve a guess. In most cases the direction is obvious. I do think talking damage on a tech is stupid. With that said I know what you mean with kb's and throwing away from the corner on purpose, I use it myself lol. I wouldnt be against a different animation for front and back throws.

Imo throws are actually risky in a lot of cases. Neutral ducking being an option is a pretty big deal imo. Characters with fast mids do make that read a lot harder to commit to, though. Maybe if movement wasnt so fast with dash blocking and etc it would be as much of an issue.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Because frame data. Nothing out of the ordinary is happening here. When two moves connect on the same frame you either trade or lose to the higher priority move.

So let me get this straight having a faster move of 3 AND 3 frames before they can press a button they win and thats normal.
A 10 frame and a 7 frame move pressed at the exact time mean the 10 frame wins WTF.
Maybe Im not saying it right but I block THEIR d1 leaving them-3 then press standing s1 of 7 frames and lose to a 10 frame throw

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

So let me get this straight having a faster move of 3 AND 3 frames before they can press a button they win and thats normal.
A 10 frame and a 7 frame move pressed at the exact time mean the 10 frame wins WTF.
Maybe Im not saying it right but I block THEIR d1 leaving them-3 then press standing s1 of 7 frames and lose to a 10 frame throw

if you did it right.. it won't counter.
THe problem is 3 frame input lag online... means that d1 throw is a legit tactic BECAUSE the throw counters normals. There isn't a "distance' for the throw to make because of the properties of it. I'm willing to bet that if you could time it perfectly every time... a throw will ALWAYS counter a normal.

I think NRS should realllllly take a look at how that property works. Apply it to Command Throws (which are all fuckin trash at themoment) and make normals always WIN the "trade" with a throw.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

if you did it right.. it won't counter.
THe problem is 3 frame input lag online... means that d1 throw is a legit tactic BECAUSE the throw counters normals. There isn't a "distance' for the throw to make because of the properties of it. I'm willing to bet that if you could time it perfectly every time... a throw will ALWAYS counter a normal.

I think NRS should realllllly take a look at how that property works. Apply it to Command Throws (which are all fuckin trash at themoment) and make normals always WIN the "trade" with a throw.

I agree thats kind of the point I was making is it shouldnt work based on frame data, the person that keeps quoting me is saying its normal and nothing is wrong with it.
Also if the online is working properly both opponents should both feel the 3 frame input lag meaning it still shouldnt work but I agree NRS messed something up.

 

[Raidenwins]

Just introduce true crossups into the game and remove the goddamn block button then there will be new options to open someone up.
Fuck tradition.

No. Just no. Block button needs to stay. Not because of tradition only, but because it fits the gameplay of MK, i.e. lots of characters with teleports. Some of us still remember the disaster that was INJ1 Scorpion or the mess that was ambiguous cross-over jumps in INJ2. And also, for me anyway, block button is the superior blocking mechanic. Holding back to block is counter intuitive and confusing. I can't count how many time times i've tried to block but backdashed instead in Tekken and i've eaten a full combo punish for it, or tried to backdash but blocked.

 

[Tony at Home]

A 10 frame and a 7 frame move pressed at the exact time mean the 10 frame wins WTF.

A 10 frame move and a 7 pressed at the same time don't necessarily come out on the same frame.

You're really pulling some lingual gymnastics to make it look like it's not a case of two moves hitting at the same time.

It's not important when you pressed a button. It's important when the first active frame comes out. If you're -3 and you press a 7 frame button then you are absolutely going to either trade or lose to a 10 frame move. Accept that you're negative on block and that has consequences

 

[TakeAChance]

A 10 frame move and a 7 pressed at the same time don't necessarily come out on the same frame.

You're really pulling some lingual gymnastics to make it look like it's not a case of two moves hitting at the same time.

It's not important when you pressed a button. It's important when the first active frame comes out. If you're -3 and you press a 7 frame button then you are absolutely going to either trade or lose to a 10 frame move. Accept that you're negative on block and that has consequences

I think he is looking at this from the reverse. The opponent d1's you blocked and go to counter poke or use a normal...Then you get swallowed by their throw.

"Kounter Throw"

It happens A LOT and there is no descrepancy or low profiling it.

 

[Tony at Home]

I think he is looking at this from the reverse. The opponent d1's you blocked and go to counter poke or use a normal...Then you get swallowed by their throw.

"Kounter Throw"

If you get thrown after blocking a d1 when trying to counter poke then it's because you were late on your input.

And if you're so late in counterpoking a d1 with your own such that even a 10 frame throw could interrupt than your lucky it was just a throw instead of a quick mid into a full combo.

 

[TakeAChance]

If you get thrown after blocking a d1 when trying to counter poke then it's because you were late on your input.

And if you're so late in counterpoking a d1 with your own such that even a 10 frame throw could interrupt than your lucky it was just a throw instead of a quick mid into a full combo.

Right, Apparently I'm the only one that gets hit by D1~throw...ever

 

[RoboCop]

[edit; I'm an idiot who can't do basic addition]

The main response I see is akin to, "oh honey, you think d1 is your only poke..." from shitty condescending members who have never actually posted helpful information. But that's ignoring the issue. If I know you're minus, and I know my poke is faster than anything you can put out, I shouldn't get blown up for using basic fight-game-math and using a d1 the way it was designed to be used. It's just stupid, bad, lazy design. Congratulations if you're one of the golden children who never has their pokes blown up by throws (you're probably a Jax or Kabal main...), but any idiot can see we're now on page 7 of a 2-day-old thread, so obviously these issues aren't limited to a handful of bad players who just need to "level up".

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Right, Apparently I'm the only one that gets hit by D1~throw...ever

He's right though -- if the opponent just went into their mid you'd have been full comboed. There's nothing special about the fact that it was a throw in that situation, other than that it made you saltier.

 

[Madog32]

Let's say their poke is -5 and yours is a 7-frame start-up. That means they have 2 frames to input their throw to catch your counter-poke. They're negative, you try to take advantage of those negative frames, but you get blown up. That's fucked up. That's just an incentive to mash when negative. If I know you can't counter-poke, why would I not just mash d1-throw even when the d1 is blocked?

This isn't accurate, tho. If they are -5 and you use a 7f attack after blocking, they have 2 frames to get something ACTIVE out to beat you. Grabs are not active until frame 10, and your 7f attack will definitely beat them. If it doesn't, you were late to press your 7f attack.

Yes, online sucks! But throws are not just destroying normals and logic out here. You are just not taking your turn on the very first possible frame.

 

[Tony at Home]

Let's say their poke is -5 and yours is a 7-frame start-up. That means they have 2 frames to input their throw to catch your counter-poke. They're negative, you try to take advantage of those negative frames, but you get blown up.

If their poke is -5 and your counter poke is 7 frames, you need to be an entire 8 frames late with your counter poke to lose to a throw.

 

[UPR_Nova]

I understand you usually can predict which way they’ll throw you, but that’s not always the case. And it also can be used against you on purpose.

I honestly don't think a lot of people have experienced this or done it to others. The throw opposite of the obvious direction is VERY strong, especially in combination with a character that has a KB on a throw.

I don't care either way. I got better at defending throws from Injustice 2. Although it was completely different, the strike/throw was still present. Just to be clear, I'm not comparing the two. And again, I don't care what happens or if anything happens to throw. I just noticed this extremely valid, and quite frankly overlooked, point.

 

[4x4lo8o]

This thread has convinced me that I should start doing throws when I'm slightly negative

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

He's right though -- if the opponent just went into their mid you'd have been full comboed. There's nothing special about the fact that it was a throw in that situation, other than that it made you saltier.

he's not right
if they hit at the same time you'd trade.

in this case... the throw always wins the trade.

I also do NOT believe that throws are "active" on frame 10.

I'd go to the lab but i'm too lazy to try and set up the test.

 

[Wetdoba]

Stop taking online seriously if you dont like d1 throw on block lol

I just quit if the connection is so bad that you cant take your turn properly. Online means nothing so if thr connection is so bad that you cant d1 out of a 15 frame gap then just quit and play someone else with a usable connection. There are plenty of times i will D1 or D3 someone with Noob and not even be able to 9 frame B1 check them on hit. Online is shit and anyone that says that online is legit at all is clueless

 

[Scoot Magee]

The good thing about throw kb's is that you lose the kb if your next throw is in the non kb direction or if your next throw is teched. You would have to get another throw with a failed tech.

Also online has like 4 frames of input lag by default. That sucks imo and it should be less in low pings or give the player the option to reduce it. The whole point of rollback is to avoid input lag.

People need to be complaining to nrs for locking the frame lag to 4 if they're unhappy with what's happening online. 4 frames of added lag makes anything defensive harder. Not to mention practicing optimal combos when your primary way to play is online sucks.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

A 10 frame move and a 7 pressed at the same time don't necessarily come out on the same frame.

You're really pulling some lingual gymnastics to make it look like it's not a case of two moves hitting at the same time.

It's not important when you pressed a button. It's important when the first active frame comes out. If you're -3 and you press a 7 frame button then you are absolutely going to either trade or lose to a 10 frame move. Accept that you're negative on block and that has consequences

You gotta be kidding me I'm not the one thats -3 in my last 4 posts WTF.

I can see this thread turned in a git gud when really all I said in my INITIAL POST is defending throws online sucks and gave some examples that ive witnessed.
Everything I said was based on frame data and simple match nothing more nothing less.

Ive been on the other end of it just because it worked for me doesnt makr it any less dumb.