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General/Other - Kotal Kahn There's no point in using Kotal Kahn when there's Jason...

T

TheFicinLegend

Noob
@MITDJT

As a Kotal Kahn main from DAY ONE (I wanted to main him but let random select pick my main and it still ended up being Kotal, like it was destiny). It saddens me to possibly think that Jason is just a better overall version of Kotal.... Let me list out some things where Jason has the advantage.

1. 3 command grabs that do more damage (both unmetered and metered) VS Kotal's 1 command grab that, even at max charge, does not equal Jason's unmetered command grabs.
2. Jason has a much better healing option in his Unstoppable variation. Jason also has a much better damage buff in this variation VS Kotal's sun ray's, which are mostly useless and Blood offering.
3. Jason's slasher variation has better mix up's than Kotal's War God variation.
4. Jason also beats Kotal in the footsies department.
5. Jason has a much better projectile than either Kotal's sun disk or his sword.
6. Jason has more viable damage.
7. Kotal beats Jason in the pokes department.
8. Kotal has a universal and slightly better air grab.
9. Jason has better frames on his moves than Kotal.
10. In my opinion, the unique things gained by Jason's variations outclass what Kotal gains in his.

Me and MIT were sparring some Jason VS Kotal and I feel like Jason is what Kotal Kahn wanted to be all along. I was saddened by this thought and wanted TYM's opinion. If there's any suggestions or input you guys could give, that would be helpful in this troubling time. Long live Oshteck.
 
C

Crayraven

Noob
Hmmm I don't see Jason as a better version of Kotal. I feel they play different and is not fair to try to compare the two. For example, you say Jason has a better projectile. But what you mean is that its faster, but that doesn't take into consideration other properties. To elaborate:

Jason's projectile: Faster, does less damage (9%) no knockdown

Kotal Kahn's projectile: Slower, does more damage (11%+) and knocks down

See what I mean? I think its easy to leave out all strengths that you may see as not important.
 
lionheart21

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Jason is slow as hell, he has terrible mix-ups outside the Slasher variation, which is insanely unsafe, and he has few ways of breaking pressure from an opponent if they stay right on top of him. Once the matchup is learned, Jason's not gonna stand much of a chance online.
 
Zatoichi

Zatoichi

Fabulous Goofball
TheFicinLegend said:
@MITDJT

As a Kotal Kahn main from DAY ONE (I wanted to main him but let random select pick my main and it still ended up being Kotal, like it was destiny). It saddens me to possibly think that Jason is just a better overall version of Kotal.... Let me list out some things where Jason has the advantage.

1. 3 command grabs that do more damage (both unmetered and metered) VS Kotal's 1 command grab that, even at max charge, does not equal Jason's unmetered command grabs.
2. Jason has a much better healing option in his Unstoppable variation. Jason also has a much better damage buff in this variation VS Kotal's sun ray's, which are mostly useless and Blood offering.
3. Jason's slasher variation has better mix up's than Kotal's War God variation.
4. Jason also beats Kotal in the footsies department.
5. Jason has a much better projectile than either Kotal's sun disk or his sword.

9. Jason has better frames on his moves than Kotal.
10. In my opinion, the unique things gained by Jason's variations outclass what Kotal gains in his.

Me and MIT were sparring some Jason VS Kotal and I feel like Jason is what Kotal Kahn wanted to be all along. I was saddened by this thought and wanted TYM's opinion. If there's any suggestions or input you guys could give, that would be helpful in this troubling time. Long live Oshteck.
Click to expand...
1. So Kotal Kahn's command grab doesn't do much damage, it's there for the fdb1 special in my opinion. It's Kotal Kahn's way of gaining a little extra meter or health. That being said, fdb1 is what needs to be buffed so it grants a bit more meter or health.

2. Lets compare: Jason's Healing is in only Unstoppable Variation and heals .25% over time for a grand total of 5%. Kotal Kahn has Sun Ray across ALL variations and heals .50% over time for a total of 10% or 1% over time for a total of 20% if you meter burn it. Not to mention that God Ray does that much damage to the opponent if they enter the ray. Jason's Damage buff is also in Unstoppable variation while Kotal Kahn has Blood Offering in ALL variations and also has a Damage totem in Blood God variation which STACKS. Both Jason and Kotal have to set these damage and healing buffs up for the best use and both have some good ways to set these up.

3. That's just not true, SLASHER Jason only has only one low/overhead mix-up which is f42. He has no low or overhead specials no low-hitting kombo strings other than f42. He has plenty of overheads in Slasher though, F2, F3, 23, 32d1, and F42 but since Jason doesn't have any low specials or low kombo strings other than F42... the opponent can just block high all day.
War God Kotal Kahn on the other hand... he has both a low and overhead special which are pretty fast. He has both low and overhead kombo strings that can be canceled into either his low or overhead special. b122, 212, and b2 for overheads and b14, 2b2, and f34 for the lows. He even has db3 which for mix up, if your opponent is blocking a string just end it in db3 for a guaranteed knockdown since the last hit is unblockable.

4. That might be true with Slasher Jason because of the machete but Kotal has the edge over Unstoppable/Relentless Jason since Jason has some slow normals in those variations.

5. Jason has a faster projectile than Kotal, sure, but it's only in Slasher Jason while again, Kotal has a projectile in all of his variations. Kotal's projectiles also do more damage and kockdown.

9. They're about even in my opinion, Kotal's moves come out faster and have some range but he can be pretty punishable on block if you do the full string while Jason has pretty slow moves but is for the most part safe on block.

10. The Resurrection, Healing Buff, Damage Buff, Armor, and Pursuit kinda outclass a lot of characters though, not just Kotal kahn.


With all of that being said, outside of war God variation, Kotal Kahn himself just isn't that strong JUST because his strings just aren't that safe and he can't cancel into anything to make his strings safe either. At least in War God he can cancel into db3, df2, or MBdb1.
 
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regulas

regulas

Your Emporer
It is a stretch clearly, the comparison is made because Jason can do some things that it feels like Kotal was supposed to be able to, but they decided instead they wanted Kotal to just deal more damage.
 
lm Tweakk

lm Tweakk

#BuffAntiAirs
Lmao , HOW THE FUCK DOES JASON BEAT KOTAL IN THE POKES DEPARTMENT ?!?!
Kotal kahn - d1= 6f d3=7f d4=6f
Jason - d1= 8f d3=11f d4=16 FRAMES

Jason beats kotal in footsies? Lmao , f1 has range out the ass , and it's only -6 , and who plays kotal to regenerate health lmao , these characters aren't even similar , I'm not gonna say jason is ass just yet , but those pokes? COMPLETE TRASH
 
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GLoRToR

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Do we really need threads like this? I mean comparing tools is legit but @Mikemetroid just warned us about downplay threads and it's not like this is helping those who like Kotal.
He's a solid character.
 
KeyserSoze

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
Well, as someone who is exclusively co-maining both characters, I admit that there are undeniably similarities. Having said that, there are two major issues with the argument presented in the OP:

1) It is laughably oversimplified (sure, both characters share some common tools and ideas, but each also has a ton of unique shit that the other does not. As a result, despite some superficial similarities, they actually play quite differently)

2) It is preposterously pro-Jason. First of all, I want to again stress (as I have done in many different threads on this site) that I believe we are simply too early in this game's life-cycle to be making these type of comparisons with any degree of confidence or certainty. I mean, at the end of the day, we are comparing a three day old character to a three week old character. Having made my reservations about this topic abundantly clear, my personal take is that Jason and Kotal are fairly even, overall. I think Jason is a much better grappler than Kotal, equipped with a far more viable healing buff. However, I think Kotal clearly has better footsies and overall mixups (his fast advancing normals alone make the footsies debate fairly one-sided). So far, they feel very even. i love them both.
 
KeyserSoze

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
Zatoichi said:
1. So Kotal Kahn's command grab doesn't do much damage, it's there for the fdb1 special in my opinion. It's Kotal Kahn's way of gaining a little extra meter or health. That being said, fdb1 is what needs to be buffed so it grants a bit more meter or health.

2. Lets compare: Jason's Healing is in only Unstoppable Variation and heals .25% over time for a grand total of 5%. Kotal Kahn has Sun Ray across ALL variations and heals .50% over time for a total of 10% or 1% over time for a total of 20% if you meter burn it. Not to mention that God Ray does that much damage to the opponent if they enter the ray. Jason's Damage buff is also in Unstoppable variation while Kotal Kahn has Blood Offering in ALL variations and also has a Damage totem in Blood God variation which STACKS. Both Jason and Kotal have to set these damage and healing buffs up for the best use and both have some good ways to set these up.

3. That's just not true, SLASHER Jason only has only one low/overhead mix-up which is f42. He has no low or overhead specials no low-hitting kombo strings other than f42. He has plenty of overheads in Slasher though, F2, F3, 23, 32d1, and F42 but since Jason doesn't have any low specials or low kombo strings other than F42... the opponent can just block high all day.
War God Kotal Kahn on the other hand... he has both a low and overhead special which are pretty fast. He has both low and overhead kombo strings that can be canceled into either his low or overhead special. b122, 212, and b2 for overheads and b14, 2b2, and f34 for the lows. He even has db3 which for mix up, if your opponent is blocking a string just end it in db3 for a guaranteed knockdown since the last hit is unblockable.

4. That might be true with Slasher Jason because of the machete but Kotal has the edge over Unstoppable/Relentless Jason since Jason has some slow normals in those variations.

5. Jason has a faster projectile than Kotal, sure, but it's only in Slasher Jason while again, Kotal has a projectile in all of his variations. Kotal's projectiles also do more damage and kockdown.

9. They're about even in my opinion, Kotal's moves come out faster and have some range but he can be pretty punishable on block if you do the full string while Jason has pretty slow moves but is for the most part safe on block.

10. The Resurrection, Healing Buff, Damage Buff, Armor, and Pursuit kinda outclass a lot of characters though, not just Kotal kahn.


With all of that being said, outside of war God variation, Kotal Kahn himself just isn't that strong JUST because his strings just aren't that safe and he can't cancel into anything to make his strings safe either. At least in War God he can cancel into db3, df2, or MBdb1.
Click to expand...
This is a solid post, overall. But, two things:

1) I think Kotal easily has better footsies than Jason (I don't even see how it is that close) and

2) Jason's Rise/Corpse Walk (his healing buff) completely shits on Sun Ray/God Ray. The regular version only has 44 frames of recovery and the ex version only has 38 - Jason has a million more practical ways to set up rise/corpse walk than Kotal does to set up Sun Ray/God Ray. Also, Kotal has to stay confined to a narrow ray, standing still, in order to actually heal himself. Meanwhile, Jason's healing buff has no effect on his movement or gameplay whatsoever. He does whatever the fuck he wants while he heals. This means that while in theory kotal can heal himself much more than Jason, in reality, Jason has an inordinately better healing tool than Kotal does. There really is no comparison.
 
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