"The Regime" vs "The Insurgency", which side are YOU on?

[Compbros]

-snip-

Time for a debate.

No one can save the world because in so doing you become responsible for the continued welfare of every country you try to save from itself. People go from being protected to being kept like pets who are only allowed so much freedom but not allowed to argue over anything. There are tyrants, yes. There are warmongers and there are people who are just evil. However, forcing peace at the cost of freedom to this degree will never work. The steps you would have to take to keep such a peace would be drastic. People will argue and fight for their culture, their religion, for simply the right to be different...you cannot stop this. The act of trying to would force such brutality from you to attempt to force all to dare not try again that people would go from being unique and full of potential to just drones.

This entire paragraph can only be viewed in our World, not the comic World. As such.....

No one can save the world because in so doing you become responsible for the continued welfare of every country you try to save from itself. People go from being protected to being kept like pets who are only allowed so much freedom but not allowed to argue over anything. There are tyrants, yes. There are warmongers and there are people who are just evil. However, forcing peace at the cost of freedom to this degree will never work

No, no one person can save the world. But a team of Gods, demigods, and superpowered beings probably can police all the world. There will always be "those people" popping up in places but having a superpowered being to quell whatever that is is highly possible.

The steps you would have to take to keep such a peace would be drastic.

Like having a "police force" that patrols the streets and Gods looking over them?

People will argue and fight for their culture, their religion, for simply the right to be different...you cannot stop this.

Yes they will, but to what extent against "Superman"? This man has done nothing but protect people, stop innocent deaths, put down ruthless criminals and save the World. If Superman comes out and says "I'm offering peace, TRUE peace beyond just stopping criminals, beyond reacting to nuclear weaponry being launched, beyond cleaning up when the villains do these heinous acts. Under my rule, bad people will be punished and innocents will be able to sleep peacefully, kids will be able to walk home from school without the fear of kidnapping or worse, where you can go on a picnic or movie and not worry about some madman with a gun ending your life", how many people are truly gonna argue?

I live in Detroit, my house has been broken into before, two of my brothers have been robbed at gun point, rarely a night goes by where I don't hear police or ambulance sirens flying by. You think the people in a city like this wouldn't gladly give up some liberties to know they can go to work everyday without fear of this nonsense? Just think of ALL the horrible things that have happened in just the US in the past few years, you think people wouldn't accept someone that they KNOW can prevent all this? You say people will fight back but there's just as many people that will fight for.

The act of trying to would force such brutality from you to attempt to force all to dare not try again that people would go from being unique and full of potential to just drones.

The drones part is throwing me. Weapons divisions of what have you can now be used towards the betterment of mankind instead of finding new ways to destroy it. People can be unique as they want as long as they're not breaking laws like carrying concealed weapons or planning some heist or something. People are as unique and full of potential now even with all the laws we have, why would a few more change this?

 

[trufenix]

i keep hearing about that but i never saw it, what comic was that in? did Batman give him cpr or something lol

Last Laugh. CPR. Nightwing thinks Joker killed Robin (I think) and just goes to town on him. Batman brings him back because somehow if you save a person from flatlining, we're supposed to believe that somehow allows you to mentally excuse the fact that you beat them to the brink of death in the first place.

 

[Critical-Limit]

I'm dissappointed this isn't a landslide victory for batman's side.


Even if Superman is keeping people safe at the moment with good intent. And everything he set out to do is all positive things.

What's he gonna do when he grows old and dies? trust that he raised a child that's incorruptable with his powers to take his place?

this is a slippery slope, and could eventually lead to someone abusing the dictator type power.




I'm obviously on batman's side. Give me Freedom, or give me death. I'll also take both if that's my only other option over being "controlled/ruled"

 

[Fred Marvel]

Last Laugh. CPR. Nightwing thinks Joker killed Robin (I think) and just goes to town on him. Batman brings him back because somehow if you save a person from flatlining, we're supposed to believe that somehow allows you to mentally excuse the fact that you beat them to the brink of death in the first place.

thanks im gonna read it now, the only reason i can think of is him saving joker to keep Dick from having the future guilt of having killed someone...but still reviving a mad man is hard to justify

 

[trufenix]

Gordon shot him in the kneecap, that didn't stop him. Seriously, I hate seeing this argument pop up. "Batman should kill Joker!" No. He shouldn't. He would be no better than those he hunts if he did that. If any one is at fault, it's the Gotham City justice system for not putting the clown in the chair. Or maybe it's our fault because THE JOKER IS POPULAR. Seriously. That's the only reason he didn't die soon after his first appearance. People latched onto him, he became an archnemesis, and he endured.

No, Batman shouldn't kill the Joker, but he shouldn't spare him an incidental death, one orchestrated by his own design or by someone else equally or even more so demented as have all happened in the past.

If Batman, the world's greatest detective, is willing to put real actual people in danger in the pursuit of the worlds most dangerous criminals survival, then he should hang up the cowl, because even if he's not pulling the trigger, he's an accessory by compliance.

 

[Critical-Limit]

thanks im gonna read it now, the only reason i can think of is him saving joker to keep Dick from having the future guilt of having killed someone...but still reviving a mad man is hard to justify

If as you say "Batman won't be the one to kill him."

Ignoring him dying, is the same as killing him if you believe you could've saved him. (Depending on perspective.)

Similar thing happened in Batman Arkham City game.

 

[trufenix]

thanks im gonna read it now, the only reason i can think of is him saving joker to keep Dick from having the future guilt of having killed someone...but still reviving a mad man is hard to justify

that's basically my beef. If it was Jason Todd or even Tim Drake type situation where they wanted to cross the line and he stopped him, that's one thing. But CPR doesn't erase the fact that Dick beat the Joker to death. That's not how PTSD works. Nobody comes home from a war and erases all the bad memories because in the end their side technically won.

 

[Compbros]

Gordon shot him in the kneecap, that didn't stop him. Seriously, I hate seeing this argument pop up. "Batman should kill Joker!" No. He shouldn't. He would be no better than those he hunts if he did that. If any one is at fault, it's the Gotham City justice system for not putting the clown in the chair. Or maybe it's our fault because THE JOKER IS POPULAR. Seriously. That's the only reason he didn't die soon after his first appearance. People latched onto him, he became an archnemesis, and he endured.

Is a judge that orders the death penalty to someone who murders dozens or hundreds of people no better than the person he's sentencing? Is the person that injects them, throws the switch, w/e no better than the person they're putting down? Would Batman, killing the Joker to save hundreds to thousands of people now, and in the future, or even in self-defense/saving one of his sidekicks no better than the guy who gunned down his parents for a couple bucks and some pearls? This argument is a very weak one, no offense.

Yes, they are at fault, every one that's within ten feet of the Joker with the ability to put him down that doesn't is at fault. However, as far as sending him to Arkham every time, Joker is truly a person where the "crazy" defense works every time. Still, at some point, the lives he takes has to take precedence over the marginal functioning member of society he may or may not become.

Yes, I blame every one of you Bat fans lol. Seriously though, it's our fault that writers throw logic out the window just because he's "popular"? These breakouts at Arkham by Joker can easily be him escaping the Death Chair instead, nothing is lost and much is gained. Keep him from getting caught or escaping the custody of the police taking him in instead of "you've killed hundreds Joker, back to Arkham for you".

 

[MoldMan]

Karried update op to reflect the roster according to allegience

Lets see team batman
Nightwing
Green Arrow
Deathstroke
Harley Quinn
Solomon Grundy
Lex Luthor
Sinestro?
Bane
Catwoman
Joker
Aquaman later will be i think
vs
Team Superman
Flash
Black Adam
Hawkgirl
Wonder Woman
Cyborg
Shazam
Green Lantern -Hal

 

[trufenix]

If as you say "Batman won't be the one to kill him."

Ignoring him dying, is the same as killing him if you believe you could've saved him. (Depending on perspective.)

Similar thing happened in Batman Arkham City game.

Disagree. Disagree totally. Especially on the Arkham City front. In AC, Joker is dying of an ailment entirely of his own design. You can't even call it rescuing a suicide, because at no point did the Joker want to die.

 

[Compbros]

Lets see team batman
Nightwing

Again, there is hardly evidence of this beyond a comic cover. I can counter that Dick is on Clark's side with a comic cover of my own and the fact that NW was fighting Green Arrow in a trailer.

 

[MoldMan]

Again, there is hardly evidence of this beyond a comic cover. I can counter that Dick is on Clark's side with a comic cover of my own and the fact that NW was fighting Green Arrow in a trailer.

i think you may be right..................... But for now ill go with this

 

[Critical-Limit]

Is a judge that orders the death penalty to someone who murders dozens or hundreds of people no better than the person he's sentencing? Is the person that injects them, throws the switch, w/e no better than the person they're putting down? Would Batman, killing the Joker to save hundreds to thousands of people now, and in the future, or even in self-defense/saving one of his sidekicks no better than the guy who gunned down his parents for a couple bucks and some pearls? This argument is a very weak one, no offense.

Yes, they are at fault, every that's within ten feet of the Joker with the ability to put him down that doesn't is at fault. However, as far as sending him to Arkham every time, Joker is truly a person where the "crazy" defense works every time. Still, at some point, the lives he takes has to take precedence over the marginal functioning member of society he may or may not become.

Yes, I blame every one of you Bat fans lol. Seriously though, it's our fault that writers throw logic out the window just because he's "popular"? These breakouts at Arkham by Joker can easily be him escaping the Death Chair instead, nothing is lost and much is gained. Keep him from getting caught or escaping the custody of the police taking him in instead of "you've killed hundreds Joker, back to Arkham for you".

Right, but you'd think. If I was batman, and you would usually assume you'd take extra precautions for every mistake that lead to joker escaping into account each time he does it. And find a solution, that eventually he'd stop breaking out.

But for plot sakes, they make the prison system retarded and easily escapable.

So from Batman's PoV. If he escaped 3 times. I'd probably be like "ok THIS time, there is no way he's escaping if we make sure this way of escape doesn't happen again."


hard to argue for batman's stance, when the prison system is really shitty. And the second he kills Joker, or ignores him "negligence" if he's dying himself. That's when the mainstream media will start debating about how Batman, killed Joker, and whether or not Batman should have that kind of authority over the lives of criminals.

it's a slippery slope. And if Batman ever does it, and it becomes public. Everything I respected about Batman will go down the drain.

 

[IceNine]

Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle, Superman?

 

[Compbros]

Right, but you'd think. If I was batman, and you would usually assume you'd take extra precautions for every mistake that lead to joker escaping into account each time he does it. And find a solution, that eventually he'd stop breaking out.

But for plot sakes, they make the prison system retarded and easily escapable.

So from Batman's PoV. If he escaped 3 times. I'd probably be like "ok THIS time, there is no way he's escaping if we make sure this way of escape doesn't happen again."


hard to argue for batman's stance, when the prison system is really shitty. And the second he kills Joker, or ignores him "negligence" if he's dying himself. That's when the mainstream media will start debating about how Batman, killed Joker, and whether or not Batman should have that kind of authority over the lives of criminals.

it's a slippery slope. And if Batman ever does it, and it becomes public. Everything I respected about Batman will go down the drain.

There is no solution because they pay off/threaten guards and their family so, as long as there's a guard that has access to opening Joker's cell, Joker will always be able to escape. You also can't go with a completely automated system as they'd just hack it or override it. Again, there is no solution.


Gotham is a cesspool of corruption and organized crime, they can always write it off as "some deal with another criminal gone bad" or "Joker betrayed" and not necessarily that it was Batman.

 

[Critical-Limit]

Disagree. Disagree totally. Especially on the Arkham City front. In AC, Joker is dying of an ailment entirely of his own design. You can't even call it rescuing a suicide, because at no point did the Joker want to die.

Reasoning with life/death is out the window with batman. So as I said "depending on perspective" It could be seen as killing him if you have everything you need to save them. The circumstances matter as you said with our own judgment of Batman.

But when it comes to Batman, he saves all lives that are within his power. That's really the only thing he runs on. It doesn't matter what joker's intentions or other people's intentions are.



It'd be like you saw a mass murderer, knowing full well he's not sane. Something happens and he's about to die, and you have everything you need to save his life.

People in the real world might think, well I'm not gonna save him he's dangerous, might kill me if he wakes up, or he deserves it. ect ect.


with Batman, I believe he sees ANY situation where someone is dying, even if they caused great harm. If he ignores it, even if he didn't cause it. I believe BATMAN see's it as good as killing them.

Again I don't have comic strips to back this up. I just don't think Batman has it in him to kill/ let someone die.

Just as in the story Joker traumatized Superman. Batman was traumatized as a child, and his morals are locked in stone.

 

[MoldMan]

Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle, Superman?

that was braianic that actually did that?

 

[Critical-Limit]

There is no solution because they pay off/threaten guards and their family so, as long as there's a guard that has access to opening Joker's cell, Joker will always be able to escape. You also can't go with a completely automated system as they'd just hack it or override it. Again, there is no solution.


Gotham is a cesspool of corruption and organized crime, they can always write it off as "some deal with another criminal gone bad" or "Joker betrayed" and not necessarily that it was Batman.

I disagree, I REALLY don't think that every cop they put in there is so easily bought off, or so easily threatened on EVERY CASE. There is no way, that it could happen as many times as it has, and they'd still put people who they aren't sure they can trust to keep joker locked up. Or have multiple keys like they do with some Nuclear missiles where multiple keys must be turned at the same time. So if they wanted to get joker out they'd have to corrupt/threaten multiple officers at the same time, w/o someone finding out about it and putting them off duty to guard the joker.

In a real scenario someone easily escaping as often as Joker has is highly unlikely IMO. The only reason it makes sense in Batman's universe, is for plot development.

 

[Compbros]

I disagree, I REALLY don't think that every cop they put in there is so easily bought off, or so easily threatened on EVERY CASE. There is no way, that it could happen as many times as it has, and they'd still put people who they aren't sure they can trust to keep joker locked up. Or have multiple keys like they do with some Nuclear missiles where multiple keys must be turned at the same time. So if they wanted to get joker out they'd have to corrupt/threaten multiple officers at the same time, w/o someone finding out about it and putting them off duty to guard the joker.

In a real scenario someone easily escaping as often as Joker has is highly unlikely IMO. The only reason it makes sense in Batman's universe, is for plot development.

No, but there are shifts and everytime they kill the guards they could put their own people in. In "Death of the Family" Joker's men pay off two guards to allow him to go in and bust some people out. Then they kill the guards anyway.

Gotham is so damn corrupt it's not even funny, like half the police force is corrupt cops in one way or another.

 

[BlackCyborg]

Letting Joker live.

If Batman kills Joker, it lowers him to their level. It makes him look like the scum he's trying to stop. That he is NOT ok with killing a living being, good or bad. If he kills someone, hope will be lost amongst common citizens, and they will start to fear him rather than look up to him. They will no longer respect him, they will see him as a masked man that takes it upon himself to kill who he doesn't want around anymore.

Batman is also afraid that if he gives in to killing Joker, that something worse might come to replace the Joker's absence. That an even deadlier/evil entity will terrorize Gotham. Or that if he kills Joker, that he'll start killing others. Once he breaks his rule, he wouldn't have a rule to break, and would start killing anyone who made themselves a target.

So no, there's reasons he hasn't killed Joker, that one can argue, at least from his perspective, is for the greater good. It's not as if he hasn't weighed his options, or given thought to killing him to stop him etc. He just feels it will do more harm than good. Which he may be right.

 

[SonicFox5000]

Insurgency man because Harley knows how bitches gotta act B)

 

[Law Hero]

All those excuses are silly. If there was a madman running around my city killing people, inspiring gangs of thugs to do heinous crimes, kidnapping, and doing all manner or terrible acts I would not lose a wink of sleep if some dude in a bat costume put him down. In fact, I would probably sleep better.

"He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." If someone is willing to kill another person or persons, then they're giving license to be killed. There's no excuse for allowing murderers like that to run rampant. Break his legs, break his spine, lobotomize him, or put him down. I'd rather one lunatic die, than put myself, my family, or my city/country at risk.

 

[Compbros]

If Batman kills Joker, it lowers him to their level. It makes him look like the scum he's trying to stop. That he is NOT ok with killing a living being, good or bad. If he kills someone, hope will be lost amongst common citizens, and they will start to fear him rather than look up to him. They will no longer respect him, they will see him as a masked man that takes it upon himself to kill who he doesn't want around anymore.

Batman is also afraid that if he gives in to killing Joker, that something worse might come to replace the Joker's absence. That an even deadlier/evil entity will terrorize Gotham. Or that if he kills Joker, that he'll start killing others. Once he breaks his rule, he wouldn't have a rule to break, and would start killing anyone who made themselves a target.

So no, there's reasons he hasn't killed Joker, that one can argue, at least from his perspective, is for the greater good. It's not as if he hasn't weighed his options, or given thought to killing him to stop him etc. He just feels it will do more harm than good. Which he may be right.

Already addressed the first paragraph.


BWAHAHAHA, that's such a stupid damn thought process that I couldn't even fucking believe it when I read it in the comics. "Something worse" than Joker? Are you fucking serious? There's nothing even CLOSE to Joker in Gotham, I simply refuse to accept this argument. No offense and no biased but that is one of the stupidest things I've heard in comics on why a Hero won't put down villains. Didn't Jason say something along the lines of "I'm not talking Two-Face, just Joker. Do you really believe that if you couldn't stop at Joker?". Does he? Does he believe that if he kills Joker he's just gonna become this monster that kills anyone that carries a gun against him? Wonder Woman killed someone but she doesn't kill indiscriminately. Again, weak reasoning on Batman's part.

Yes, there are reasons but they're stupid, soooooo stupid. His fanbase is not stupid but those two reasons are just dumb. By the way, if the villains knew he killed Joker, doesn't it stand to reason they'd think twice about doing their next crime?

 

[Euphoric]

I am not updating the OP based off speculation, I will once the game releases, but you guys are free to assume who's on whose side.

 

[trufenix]

But when it comes to Batman, he saves all lives that are within his power. That's really the only thing he runs on. It doesn't matter what joker's intentions or other people's intentions are.

That's the thing though, Batman DOESN'T save all lives and he doesn't care about all villains. He has never batted an eyelash at the scores of criminals in the city who have killed each other in the name of the Penguin or Black Mask or any of those guys. He let Dr. Strange kill himself TWICE. He's let Riddler and Scarecrow mentally traumatize themselves with their own designs, and apparently whenever Hush comes to town, the bad guys in Gotham are just allowed to do WHATEVER to each other and Batman will just check in later to clean it up.

The only bad guy who seems to have Bat-amnesty is Joker and that is preposterous.