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The "Let's Be Serious Here" Podcast with Perfect Legend, Tom Brady, and M2Dave

Who would you like to see on the next LBSH podcast?

  • Forever King

    Votes: 24 16.7%
  • GGA 16 Bit

    Votes: 56 38.9%
  • KDZ

    Votes: 22 15.3%
  • Pig of the Hut

    Votes: 26 18.1%
  • Rico Suave

    Votes: 10 6.9%
  • Other (specify in thread)

    Votes: 6 4.2%

  • Total voters
    144

sn1kzZe

Noob
I really wanna see KDZ on one of the podcasts. He has strong opinions on a lot of aspects of the game, is a very knowledgeable player, and always brings the hype. I've only ever heard him on the OBS while we were in a diner after the Break onces and, well, LBSH, that doesn't count haha.
negative, we must bring 16bit to the show, I wanna hear some awkward arguments and blowups
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Old: -12

New: -23

In fact, new low gunshots have more recovery frames than Aquaman's FTD, yet FTD tracks anywhere on the screen, does more damage and chip damage, and MB FTD leads to 20% of damage anywhere on the screen. Aquaman also has better footsies, a better trait, better damage output, etc.
So all/most characters wouldn't be able to dash inbetween consecutive low shots with the original recovery frames, correct (12f recovery + 11f startup = 23f, but you generally need to wait an extra few frames to see if the MB comes)? This creates a guessing game of trying to jump, where he can do normal gunshots or air shots to counter than on read, on top of the the meter building that he is doing and the fact that once you get in sword flip range, you need to guess whether that's coming, block and punish, or you can get in his face and try to start some offense. I dunno man, with his f3 mixups, high/low game, and relatively strong wakeup game, I think he is pretty ok where he is now without an additional guessing game to play. I think this makes him less braindead, and more interesting to fight against and play as. I don't have a huge amount of experience against him, just a few matches with Jonnitti and some other guys at the Break when I make it out, but I'm curious what you think and if this makes sense.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
So all/most characters wouldn't be able to dash inbetween consecutive low shots with the original recovery frames, correct (12f recovery + 11f startup = 23f, but you generally need to wait an extra few frames to see if the MB comes)? This creates a guessing game of trying to jump, where he can do normal gunshots or air shots to counter than on read, on top of the the meter building that he is doing and the fact that once you get in sword flip range, you need to guess whether that's coming, block and punish, or you can get in his face and try to start some offense. I dunno man, with his f3 mixups, high/low game, and relatively strong wakeup game, I think he is pretty ok where he is now without an additional guessing game to play. I think this makes him less braindead, and more interesting to fight against and play as. I don't have a huge amount of experience against him, just a few matches with Jonnitti and some other guys at the Break when I make it out, but I'm curious what you think and if this makes sense.
Low gunshots have 16 frames of start up. Every character has always been able to forward dash in between low gunshots, but a couple of characters (i.e., Green Lantern and Lex Luthor) were unable to forward dash in between low gunshots and high gunshots.

The character is "OK" if you by "OK" you mean "ruined". Given the design, he is obviously meant to played as a zoning character, not as a rush down character. Imagine if Killer Frost's slide had 11 more frames of recovery. Imagine where she would stand on the tier list. That is where Deathstroke currently stands because his best move was ruined by 11 frames.
 
Low gunshots have 16 frames of start up. Every character has always been able to forward dash in between low gunshots, but a couple of characters (i.e., Green Lantern and Lex Luthor) were unable to forward dash in between low gunshots and high gunshots.

The character is "OK" if you by "OK" you mean "ruined". Given the design, he is obviously meant to played as a zoning character, not as a rush down character. Imagine if Killer Frost's slide had 11 more frames of recovery. Imagine where she would stand on the tier list. That is where Deathstroke currently stands because his best move was ruined by 11 frames.
imo deathstroke right now is a better designed character than it was before, its not just one move that overshadows the rest of his good moves and he has quite a few. DS is one of the better mid tiers imo and what they really should have done is give him a useful trait, that would make DS a great character design.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
imo deathstroke right now is a better designed character than it was before, its not just one move that overshadows the rest of his good moves and he has quite a few. DS is one of the better mid tiers imo and what they really should have done is give him a useful trait, that would make DS a great character design.
Deathstroke's design is worse and NRS made his trait worse.

The trait does as much damage as old low gunshots did... on block. LOL.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Low gunshots have 16 frames of start up. Every character has always been able to forward dash in between low gunshots, but a couple of characters (i.e., Green Lantern and Lex Luthor) were unable to forward dash in between low gunshots and high gunshots.

The character is "OK" if you by "OK" you mean "ruined". Given the design, he is obviously meant to played as a zoning character, not as a rush down character. Imagine if Killer Frost's slide had 11 more frames of recovery. Imagine where she would stand on the tier list. That is where Deathstroke currently stands because his best move was ruined by 11 frames.
I think you and everyone else ever just fundamentally disagree with the way Deathstroke is meant to function. Your analysis of him seems to be based on ONLY using gunshots, while others are saying that his gunshots are relatively decent, but once a character manages to get through them, there is still a solid toolset that he has to exploit (and a lot of ways for him to put you back at full screen if that's your thing). You are known for only really wanting to zone, and I don't think that is what they wanted this character to be (or any character in this game for that matter).
You were referencing comics a bit in the podcast as a means of defining how a character should be- Deathstroke is a mercenary who, while using guns as any mercenary would, ALSO brawls on an extremely high level with a massive amount of martial arts knowledge. Kinda makes sense that his build in this game demonstrates that, no?
 
I wonder if PL and Brady have been listening to the WCW podcast.
No, I dont.

Its just the usual.. Im the worst player on earth, the dumbest player, etc.. I dont listen to it because I dont need to hear negativity for 2 hours. So what if they say I'm the worst player in the history of NRS games? I play because I like the game, so it doesnt matter that if I'm good or bad.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
No, I dont.

Its just the usual.. Im the worst player on earth, the dumbest player, etc.. I dont listen to it because I dont need to hear negativity for 2 hours. So what if they say I'm the worst player in the history of NRS games? I play because I like the game, so it doesnt matter that if I'm good or bad.
You're not missing anything. It's just ducky saying he's awesome and Chef downplaying everything that's not WC related. Typical west coa... eh, you know.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
I think you and everyone else ever just fundamentally disagree with the way Deathstroke is meant to function. Your analysis of him seems to be based on ONLY using gunshots, while others are saying that his gunshots are relatively decent, but once a character manages to get through them, there is still a solid toolset that he has to exploit (and a lot of ways for him to put you back at full screen if that's your thing). You are known for only really wanting to zone, and I don't think that is what they wanted this character to be (or any character in this game for that matter).
You were referencing comics a bit in the podcast as a means of defining how a character should be- Deathstroke is a mercenary who, while using guns as any mercenary would, ALSO brawls on an extremely high level with a massive amount of martial arts knowledge. Kinda makes sense that his build in this game demonstrates that, no?
Fool, you seem like an anti-zoning zealot to me.

Some characters rely on the same move for offense, defense, or both. Some examples are Killer Frost's slide, Martian Manhunter's overhead teleport, and Superman's f+2,3, etc. Should all of these moves have 11 more frames of recovery?

If Martian Manhunter can have a dumb move like the overhead teleport, why can Deathstroke not have old low gunshots? He cannot if you hate zoning like you do.
 

Saboteur-6

Filthy Casual
No, I dont.

Its just the usual.. Im the worst player on earth, the dumbest player, etc.. I dont listen to it because I dont need to hear negativity for 2 hours. So what if i'm the worst player in the history of NRS games? I play because I like the game, so it doesnt matter that if I'm good or bad.
Tom man it might not mean much but there's plenty of people here that actually want to see you do well and are excited that you can focus on the game free of conflicting professional obligations. People are going to talk shit because you're high profile but just as many people will give you props and cheer you on too. You're not 'the worst' player in fact, you're one of the few players that have managed to build a professional career based around competitive fighting game knowledge. That's not something to dismiss. To me that goes BEYOND placing in Top 8's and tournament results because you're making a CAREER.

It's like you'll read over/dismiss 5 posts giving you props only to focus on the one blowing you up. You CHOOSE who you let affect you emotionally like that and you're not obligated to indulge in the negative shit talkers. You're high profile so 'haters gonna hate' but, don't let them drown out the people that want you to do well. I know I for one am glad you're able to refocus and start getting into competing again and look forward to you Trident Rushing the holy smoking fuschnickens out of people. So buck up bro and come around more often...we're not all raging dick faces.
 
Tom man it might not mean much but there's plenty of people here that actually want to see you do well and are excited that you can focus on the game free of conflicting professional obligations. People are going to talk shit because you're high profile but just as many people will give you props and cheer you on too. You're not 'the worst' player in fact, you're one of the few players that have managed to build a professional career based around competitive fighting game knowledge. That's not something to dismiss. To me that goes BEYOND placing in Top 8's and tournament results because you're making a CAREER.

It's like you'll read over/dismiss 5 posts giving you props only to focus on the one blowing you up. You CHOOSE who you let affect you emotionally like that and you're not obligated to indulge in the negative shit talkers. You're high profile so 'haters gonna hate' but, don't let them drown out the people that want you to do well. I know I for one am glad you're able to refocus and start getting into competing again and look forward to you Trident Rushing the holy smoking fuschnickens out of people. So buck up bro and come around more often...we're not all raging dick faces.
I dont let anything effect me anymore. I dont care what anyone says. I dont play to hear what ppl are saying, I play because I love the games. I appreciate all the support that ppl give me.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I main Dee Jay, so I'm all about dat zoning, but I've told you before, there is no projectile zoning without some form of projectile trades, because the aggressor must submit to the actions of the "zoner" when projectiles don't cancel each other out.

No, it isn't irrelevant, and NRS nerfing gunshots and heat vision proves my point. It's no different than MK2 Mileena's sai or Liu Kang's instant fireball. Because projectiles never trade, and yet some characters are given strong defense, the strategy of the game is reduced to a lopsided game of chase. It's an antiquated way to design these games, and when they make these characters do this stuff it's actually insulting to the intelligence of their players. They're essentially saying, we know some of you are kind of bad, but we still want your money, so here's a character that no one can attack--Yay you win because no one can fight you...in a fighting game....

NRS wants some things to seem "random" in order to give everyone the sense that they have a chance to play the game without having skill levels totally dictate the choices in matches. However, they also know that by having simple strategy keepaway characters like MK2 Mileena (hold a button to keep people out), Kenshi (buy dlc to gain the satisfaction of strong keepaway), and Deathstroke that they can appease weaker players who either aren't skilled yet or don't like playing the guessing game, and they can claim a balance of offense and defense in their games.

You can't have a character in a game whose dominate strategy is to stand on the far side of the screen and attack and force you to take damage or chip before you get near them. That's a ridiculous design. The only reason it works for Guile, or any character in SF is because projectiles trade, so space can be lost(by the retreating player) and gained (by the attacking player) HONESTLY, and control isn't established until they actually clash when one breaks the other's strategy. In non trading projectile games the control is established too easily by who has the strongest keepaway attack. That losing and gaining space was always a gripe I had when they allowed teleport ninjas to escape corners.

When they did that, they partially destroyed some of the integrity of the old games, because it allowed players to act without consequence, which they have made even stronger in their modern games by having a good amount of safe attacks.
As far as I am concerned, you are a hypocrite.

You complain about strong keep away characters but ignore Injustice's most powerful gameplay aspect which is the standing reset followed by a safe 50/50 mix up that you cannot react to. If you want to complain about "insulting the intelligence of players", why do you not rant about the game's safe 50/50 mix ups? A 50/50 mix up is the simplest offensive strategy that any fighting game can have.

If zoning characters could not zone and run away in this game, how would they...

1) deal with standing resets and safe 50/50 mix ups?
2) deal with armor that can last up to 15 seconds?
3) deal with teleports?
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Fool, you seem like an anti-zoning zealot to me.

Some characters rely on the same move for offense, defense, or both. Some examples are Killer Frost's slide, Martian Manhunter's overhead teleport, and Superman's f+2,3, etc. Should all of these moves have 11 more frames of recovery?

If Martian Manhunter can have a dumb move like the overhead teleport, why can Deathstroke not have old low gunshots? He cannot if you hate zoning like you do.
I am kind of against zoning, but that's just because IMO it's boring to play, fight against, and watch. I can respect your opinion, differing from mine though it may be, on zoning; everyone has their own playstyle.
I'm just pointing out that I and many others don't think Deathstroke is a bad character, and it seems more like he is bad at fitting exclusively into your playstyle, which is known to rely heavily if not entirely on zoning.
I agree with you that moves like those you listed are stupid in that they fit too many roles; I really hate jumping against Superman, for instance, and getting anti-aired by a god damn f23...
However, I don't think that is a case for having MORE moves in the game that are as braindead as these, but rather, that there should be less. It's unfortunately that these moves were left as they are (except maybe f23 which did at least get some reductions in it's range), but I for one would rather see more characters that don't have broken nonsense than have a ton that do. This is Injustice though, and broken nonsense is kinda what separately the top characters from the others. I've never been one to play top characters in these games and general go for characters that I think are more interesting or appeal to me, though, so I'm sure my opinion there is exactly that- my own.
 

GGA Saucy Jack

The artist formerly known as ImNewbieSauce
Old: -12

New: -23

In fact, new low gunshots have more recovery frames than Aquaman's FTD, yet FTD tracks anywhere on the screen, does more damage and chip damage, and MB FTD leads to 20% of damage anywhere on the screen. Aquaman also has better footsies, a better trait, better damage output, etc.
Im not entering on either side of the argument.

Just playing devils advocate.

Aquaman cant wakeup. Deathstroke can wake up in two different ways.

So its not all sunshine and roses in Atlantis.

Carry on good sirs.