Cyber-Sub Zero says hiNo character is fine when they can drop 41-43% of your HP at midscrenn without the use of a single enchanced bar, Tom. SPECIALLY Someone as good at zonning like Ermac.
That's my opinion.
I agree with you here. Ermac's damage is absolutely fine for what he is. The reaosn they nerfed Kung Lao's damage is because he has sooo many ways to get in on his opponents and his pressure+chip is amazing. He also builds meter so fast while doing all of this lol. Sub-Zero currently does less damage than Kung Lao in a lot of situations. That says it all about Sub's current damage out put for me; I think Kung Lao's damage is fine for what he is. Sub-Zero's damage is not fine for what he is, as I explained in the "what buffs does Sub-Zero need" thread.Cyber-Sub Zero says hi
If Ermac did any less damage he'd go to Quan Chi tier.
I agree with you. Sindel is really one good wakeup attack into a string from moving up the tiers. Baraka needs a string that isnt' 2,2,1+2 that lets him land around 30% and is fast on startup. I also think his spin should be an armored exwakeup. I don't know anything about stryker to tell you the truth.I will not deny that sub needs a buff and that the slide buff could potentially give him the advantage he needs. But, 2 things, baraka, sindel, and stryker need some kind of buffs to their mobility seeing as everyone else has some crazy way to get around projectiles. Baraka does have the en charge but that trades with the projectile and if they quick roll backwards your no closer to them than before and all you did was trade damage, maybe a buff to that. Striker needs some faster moves or knockback, comparing him to ermac, less damage, no ambiguous zone game or amount of knockback on his moves. sub was #4 on my list of who needs buffed. And 2. just buff people they should stop nerfing or the game becomes flat and uninteresting, the damage scaling already discourages creativity when it comes to practical combo's .
Baraka can be completley rushed down or zoned out by the better characters. his normals are slow which means he has to punish with blade charge many times and he doesn't build meter for anything. He does have decent corner damage (who doesn't) and a decent high/low mixup (which isn't THAT important). He needs a fast normal string to compliment the slow punish string.Just a few remarks after reading through the thread.
Sindel and Stryker don't need any changes. They compete with each other for best zoners in the game. Give me a break. Did you see JediRobb did at EVO? Sindel's fireball is also a low, and her flip kick is ONLY punished by Kung Lao & Reptile. I won't even dignify a discussion about Baraka; he's fine.
Next, things and opinions change over time. New discoveries are made as match-ups are played out exhaustively. Some of Tom's opinions have changed on Sub-Zero, as have a lot of ours. He does need help. Some characters are more popular than others, and thus get dealt with first. Get over it. As time passes, players will gravitate to other characters and then we will be discussing those as well.
Also, "zero buffs" (the title of this thread)...wow, you must not be playing worthy opponents. If you think Kitana & Mileena are 5/5 matchups for Sub, go to a tournament. None of Sub-Zero's pokes are fast or ranged enough to do anything against either of the sisters. You need to go check out Tom's YouTube videos on this. Keeping Reptile at bay using an ice clone...nearly impossible. Not only does he have the fastest move in the game (elbow dash), but 2 different force ball speeds. He is out of the corner easily and you are stuck blocking his force balls while your clone disappears and he dash-cancels behind another force ball and chips you to death while you figure out if he will overhead or slide. Another terrible match-up for Sub-Zero.
What actually does need to be done? You can read my post in the "what buff does Sub-Zero really need" thread. Feel free to tear me a new one in there.
You're trolling right? If you people actually believe that he is such a bad character, then don't use him, i personally feel he's one of the better characters in the game and probably the easiest to dominate with. Plus his turtle play style is second to none in this game. Also he has a one bar 45% to 50% BnB reset. If you can't win with sub, well then you're doing something wrong. If he were to be buffed, i'd buff his EX slide and a little more duration when frozen.I agree that despite being mid-tier that Sub-Zero needs to be buffed up to S.
The sooner Sub-Zero becomes S class, the sooner the MK9 competitive scene is going to really pick up. Seriously. Really. *whistles*
The Ground Freeze reset is being taken out, man. That's a nerf if you think about it, and it's partly why this thread is receiving attention.Also he has a one bar 45% to 50% BnB reset.
its not being taken out... its just not guaranteed. see... you took the thing out of context.The Ground Freeze reset is being taken out, man. That's a nerf if you think about it, and it's partly why this thread is receiving attention.
Thanks for the compliment : ) It's very true that I can over-simplify things at times, and I certainly know that I don't have as much match-up experience as some others. I would never suggest that my advice or the information I give is definite or final. All I can offer, really, is my own experience for people to use alongside their own. If I turn out to be wrong about something, I should be corrected so that I can learn, and thus we all help each other. That's the point of this forum : PTo your Kitana and Mileena stuff.... totally agree. Mech I think you have awesome insight... but I think you sometimes over simplify matchups. Good Reptiles will 90% of the time be able to stay out of that magic sub trade range. its not hard for them. The matchup is in his favor slightly due to how careful sub has to play... and how many ways Reptile can close the distance or just chip,chip,chip,chip away. Then lets toss in all the meter he builds by this. However, it isn't impossible and Mechs strategy does work, you just have to work.
Well if you scan through there is. This thread is based in our opinions and knowledge whether sub should or shouldnt get buff at all. I would say there is quite sub techonology here. Are you trying to play sub?When i read the title i thought there was some kind of Sub-Zero strategy or art involved.
The "Killing Art" is Sub's corner-game, where he basically rapes you in a threesome with himself.When i read the title i thought there was some kind of Sub-Zero strategy or art involved.
Sub does not need more meter combos. His meter should be for his Xray, which is why he'll be less confusing again once his reset is taken away. I agree that a damage buff is only fair but let's remember, Sub-Zero's 22 is amazing. I don't know how people can seriously say Sub's close mixup game isn't good. You have a string you can hit confirm into an iceball for 30% or 4, clone for lockdown. This makes him super safe whenever he initiates pressure. No other character in the game can be as safe as Sub-Zero while he builds meter towards his Xray and corner destruction. Because Sub has such safe options off his 22, he gets to dissect his opponents slowly. He doesn't need to be able to teleport (Cyrax's teleport is super unsafe), or throw out a tonne of chip damage like Noob. Sub-Zero, a bit like Freddy lol, says, I am coming for you, can you stop me. His meter game is also similar to a freight train gathering momentum. Once he has Xray, the game changes completely.Now let's look at Sub Zero.
Sub - first of all, Sub's corner game is the best in the game - no doubt. However, Sub lacks in many other areas. For one, mobility. Sub's mobility is greatly limited by his lackluster dash speed and lack of a teleport of some kind. Second is Sub's ability to capitalize. If Sub gets a freeze fullscreen, he can get a slide for 10% damage. Even if Sub gets a freeze from up close, he does 25% damage from an air freeze and 29% off of a grounded freeze. Sub had to work hard to trap his opponent to get that kind of damage while a character like Cyrax does half as much work for more than double the result? Why is that? Third is that all of Sub's special moves are punishable by most of the cast and his ground freeze is useless. Fourth is that Sub builds meter rather slowly. Fifth is that Sub NEEDS meter; he needs that meter to be able to finish his opponent off with (jip) 214 . Finally, his upclose mixup isn't too good. He's got his 22 string which can go to 224 clone and he can mix it up with slide. However, that's easy for an opponent to block. Block low by default and fuzzy guard his overhead F4 and 222 string which are both easy to react to. If he goes for the clone option, he is pushed away and has to make his way in again.
So it looks like in comparison with characters that have similar goals to him, he falls short everywhere except in the corner - which is a situational scenario.
This is why, I feel, that the best way to make Sub a little more even with other characters is to up his damage by 4-5%. Either that or to make his EX Freeze useful by making it able to refreeze without the combo falling short and to remove the damage scaling on the EX Freeze.
So this combo should work with the suggested changed:
*block unsafe move* 22 Freeze jip 212 EX Freeze Dash *whiff* B1 2 21 Slide.
Hell, this could open up the door to more combo opportunities for Sub.
You're dropping Sub for Freddy? Lmao. See you back here in two week's timelol Subs losing his 1 bar 50% combo? Freddy here I come.
lol I told myself a lot of times that Im gonna drop Sub, but I just keep on coming back.You're dropping Sub for Freddy? Lmao. See you back here in two week's time