Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero's Ice Clone doesn't work properly

[Metzos]

I was just wondering why this happens though.

It says that it's -4 on block

I dont think its correct, but you should ask a SZ player just to be sure.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Totally agree.

 

[Tom Brady]

Ok, I was intrigued enough to go to the lab and do a quick video.

The clones hitbox is literally on the farthest area back of the clone itself. In this case, F4~Clone puts sub zeros elbow as the farthest area back of the clone. That's where the hitbox of the clone lies.

Therefore, in this same setup, when Sub Zero is NOT BLOCKING (extending his own block box) an opponent can tag sub zero with a standing jab, or a d1 because sub zeros hit box (torso area) is actually ahead of the elbow of the clone.

HOWEVER, if sub zero is not blocking d3's and d4's will go through the strip of the clone before reaching sub zero and produce a freeze.
*Video will be up in a second*

which doesnt matter when many characters can still D1 him on hit or block through the clone.

 

[TakeAChance]

which doesnt matter when many characters can still D1 him on hit or block through the clone.

Agreed. Just wanted to explain what seems to be causing the problem.

Even if sub zero walks backwards, d1's will not get frozen by the clone. The "freeze box" is too far back. It essentially becomes a free check.

A solution to this would be trying to get a clone setup where sub's clone animation doesn't have his elbow that far back. I don't play sub so I don't even know f that's possible.

 

[Tom Brady]

Agreed. Just wanted to explain what seems to be causing the problem.

Even if sub zero walks backwards, d1's will not get frozen by the clone. The "freeze box" is too far back. It essentially becomes a free check.

A solution to this would be trying to get a clone setup where sub's clone animation doesn't have his elbow that far back. I don't play sub so I don't even know f that's possible.

there is none.

 

[TakeAChance]

there is none.

You can actually see that my theory is correct.

Do a recording of sub doing F4~EX Ice Clone and leave the record going with sub at neutral until the clone expires.

Replay the recording and go up close to the clone and d1 it.

Erron's Fist will be at the exact same vertical plane as Sub Zero's elbow on the clone.

What I am trying to figure out is how a characters actual body activates the clone's freeze. Either the hitboxes around characters are massive, or the clone reacts differently to attack properties.

It's weird.

 

[TakeAChance]

Since YouTube does not want to cooperate with me right now, I created this graphic.

Hope it helps, I am going to bed.

 

[CJKRattlehead]

In the opposite, it's not normal seeing Ferra (as projectile) not destroying the clone while every projectile of the game can do so.

Ferra isn't a projectile, think of her as a disjointed physical attack, hence why you can't reflect her.

 

[MadeFromMetal]

Ferra isn't a projectile, think of her as a disjointed physical attack, hence why you can't reflect her.

I now want to see Kenshi reflect a Boss Toss.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

So yeah, there's quite a few things that are incon- sorry *inkonsistent with the Ice clone.

...ice *klone....

while you're at it <3

 

[BigMilk]

@OFIDYAN

 

[MadeFromMetal]

...ice *klone....

while you're at it <3

These are the truly important details.

 

[Rabid Justice]

So basically don't stand in the clone

 

[CJKRattlehead]

I now want to see Kenshi reflect a Boss Toss.

You can go fuck yourself sir, Kenshi gets no more buffs and Vicious gets no more nerfs!

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Interesting.

 

[Tom Brady]

also updated the OP with this vid

 

[sinosleep]

This needs fixing.

 

[Kilz88]

Hey @Tom Brady Not sure if this is the right place for this but it feels related...Have you or anyone addressed to NRS the issue with certain special moves like Raiden's Fly going through the clone? Im not sure if they tried to patch it already but it is still happening to me. It isnt the only special move it happens with either. No it not on start up either, which is what a lot of people were saying to me. I put the clone up, wait a second, they do regular non-ex fly (or moves like it) and it just goes straight through and hit me or I block it and clone disappears. Feels like it is happening for the same reason as the videos here. I think it too should be addressed.

 

[SaJa]

Ferra isn't a projectile, think of her as a disjointed physical attack, hence why you can't reflect her.

Blanche can't be reflected and yet she blows up the clones x)

 

[loogie]

In my opinion its because it was never intended to be used as a repeatable corner trap. There are plenty of other uses for the clone that dont involve requiring it to have a massive pixel perfect hitbox.

you can clearly see in the vids, its not about pixel perfect hitbox... erron touches the clone in two points (hand/jab, and his foot) none freeze him. hell, the jab goes through the center of the clone.
That doesn't look logical to me... so when are you supposed to be caught by the clone. which means, a close clone is near useless and Sub should only clone midscreen distance away or fullscreen away? corner game becomes weak, too weak.

You CANNOT repeat a corner trap, it is demonstrated also in the first video... there is a cooldown now after the patch. I suggest you try it yourself, and see if you can do a clone right after a clone disappears...

Come on dude, be logical about it. The problem people have vs Sub is that they don't want to learn the matchup. Now tell me you knew about the cooldown of the clone...!? if so, why would you claim he has a repeatable corner trap.

 

[loogie]

Im like 99% sure now that being able to poke through is an intended effect. Take a look at this. Im using Kotal here and my D4 hits. However my B4 gets frozen. Same exact animation for both moves, so you must assume same hitbox? D4 is a poke whereas B4 is a hard knockdown.

your b4 is moving Kotal forward ... more collision with the clone! and why would anyone use a b4.... you can't be serious

this argument is not valid friendo

 

[BillStickers]

The real issue at hand is that the engine does a collision check on ice clone only during attack recovery as opposed to during start-up and active frames.

When the clone stayed on screen on block, this was a non-issue since sub would simply block the attack and then the collision check would kick in and freeze the opponent. The bug here is that the check to see if sub zero is blocking (and therefore pop the clone) comes *before* the collision check during recovery.

The solution for NRS is to simply move the collision check to the front of an opponent's attack . A possible new bug that could arise from this is just-frame freezes where sub zero makes the clone and the opponent is immediately frozen, but the solution that is to simply test against how long the clone has been out before collision.

 

[CJKRattlehead]

Blanche can't be reflected and yet she blows up the clones x)

She does? that shouldn't happen

 

[Bidu]

Obviously it's intended, man. rofl Ice Klone shatters on block, since like... forever.

This might be me or just not real but as Scorpion I can break his Ice Klone by walking into it and blocking at the right now.

Obviously you can block it. This is, in fact, working as intended.

 

[ZeZe]

I'm afraid Klone is more messed up then we can imagine. I have PC version, and I tried cancel into ex ice klone from F4,2 on Jax, Kano and Kitana. Basically when dummies were on "block always" everything was fine mid screen and in the corner (even Kano!). But when they were not blocking, I could cancel mid screen but not in the corner. I'll do some more testing when I'm back home. This is PC version though and now it even more looks like some freakin different brand of the game.

Plus Raiden can still superman through the klone no problem.