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Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GM Match Ups

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
@omooba apparently during our time discussing Raiden, the patch fixed this. Raiden can no longer electric fly through clone. That's the word on the street anyway.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
Anyone see next level battle circuit this week? It was extreamly good.. but HonneyBee (Swam-D'vorah) vs DJT (Gran-Sub)... man D'vorah just made a joke out of iceclone. As in basically could completely ignore it!

Now I am not in a "nurff this, buff this, this isn't working right" camp... All I am saying is match up wise... She seams own Gran-Sub as iceclone is nearly useless.

Check out her busting out of jail strait though the clone
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=270m44s

Check out her over head going right over the clone into full combo (this is common in this set)
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=265m43s

Check out low pokes to bait jump for d2, each poke going right through
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=270m26s

Entire match starts here (watch it, as it is awesome)
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=265m25s

If you watch the full set you can see the disrespect for the clone. Could we call D'Vorah a hard counter for gan-sub?
They just made our only low starter combo a one frame link. The dirtiest nerf I've ever seen so no please no more nerf. Buff please lol or at least take out this one nerf
 

CRUM

Noob
My hardest personal matches based purely off of what I've experienced online are Jacqui, Scorpion (particularly inferno), Takeda, Kenshi, and the damn mirror match. I don't know if the gimmicks get to me, but these matchups completely puzzle me.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
My hardest personal matches based purely off of what I've experienced online are Jacqui, Scorpion (particularly inferno), Takeda, Kenshi, and the damn mirror match. I don't know if the gimmicks get to me, but these matchups completely puzzle me.
Lol basically most of the characters that can easily get through the clone
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I think the mirror is important to talk about as it highlights our own weaknesses.

Let's take the match ups one at a time. Maybe start with Jaqui? I'm not familiar with her variations save for Full Auto. In which case, be patient, duck and watch for ex gun shots> missile, and dash in little by little. Then hit her with slide or react to her gameplay switch. Throw is popular reaction for her once you're in a range to punish.
 

ZeZe

The smart stuff!
Am I the only one who fears Kenshi and Tanya are already two MU in which all SZ's variations are bad. Tanya for obvious reasons. Against Kenshi mby Unbreakable would be good, if his dmg wasn't that bad.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I have trouble against Tanya, but who doesn't? She's a great character. She seems to always control the pace of the match by either running away or suddenly being at perfect jip height. I've had luck jumping when she does. If I see her teleport I njp on reaction and push her to the corner. Other than that, all her strings are pretty safe, and if they're not she can teleport. I honestly think she needs a nerf. @Tom Brady has some tech regarding her wake ups that makes her more manageable. Check his yt channel.

Kenshi seems to have a kit that counters clone by nature, but I've personally never had an issue beating him online. I manage to punish (?) almost every special he has with slide, and his mix up seems weak. Does he have any overheads? Seems like a lab heavy match up.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Solid stuff, great showing of the match up for sure. It looks like Kano can ex knives through clone for free, then get a free block string. We should look into ways to stop that. Also does Kano have an OH confirm?

What's our optimal punish after blocked Kano ball? It looks/ feels awkward to react to.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
My hardest personal matches based purely off of what I've experienced online are Jacqui, Scorpion (particularly inferno), Takeda, Kenshi, and the damn mirror match. I don't know if the gimmicks get to me, but these matchups completely puzzle me.
I think the inferno scorpion one is only due to online lag/input delay. I actually think ninjitsu is harder for gm sub due to his 2 hit armorbreaking f2 and b4. I dont have enough takeda or kenshi experience with GM sub to offer any input on that one. What is the main issue you are having against inferno out of curiosity? If it has anything to do with demon mixups or f4 I would just chalk that up to the garbage netcode lol
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Solid stuff, great showing of the match up for sure. It looks like Kano can ex knives through clone for free, then get a free block string. We should look into ways to stop that. Also does Kano have an OH confirm?

What's our optimal punish after blocked Kano ball? It looks/ feels awkward to react to.
IIRC from my labbing you punish blocked kano ball with f33 (or f3~ex freeze). Im at work now so I I am just speaking from memory so feel free to blow me up if im wrong lol
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Solid stuff, great showing of the match up for sure. It looks like Kano can ex knives through clone for free, then get a free block string. We should look into ways to stop that. Also does Kano have an OH confirm?

What's our optimal punish after blocked Kano ball? It looks/ feels awkward to react to.
After playing against Noobe's Kano, it think its a hard fought match up. the EX knives are +5 and he has 2 pressure strings: B3,1, and B1,3 that allow him to pressure however he feels like, and none of Subs pokes allow him to get away. Offline if the Kano blocks the overhead it can lead into a very nasty punish or standing reset that allows him a way out of the corner. On top of that Kano has a decent knock down game and mix up between ex Kano ball and ex knives. Now I did lab what sub can do to stop him from EX knifing on wake up since it has no armor, and after Clone F42 is the best option. But the risk there in lies the threat of Kano ball. Kano has probably the best dash speed in the game, so trying to even punish him for a knife on a read can prove to be challenging, but it is possible.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Pretty sure regular Kano ball is an easy punish with B12, and up ball is unpublishable on block right, you just take your free Clone, or string into Clone. I may be wrong however.
 

Creepy00

Noob
Pretty sure regular Kano ball is an easy punish with B12, and up ball is unpublishable on block right, you just take your free Clone, or string into Clone. I may be wrong however.
You are correct, you can punish regular kano ball with b12 for 27%. You can also punish his upball with b12 as well. The trick is to wait for Kano to fall a little (his feet must be a in before touching the floor) and buffer b12. When you do this, kano is put on a ground state and you can continue your combo. It is just the same way, you would punish mileena telekick, just gotta wait a little before hitting them.

Also, if you guys have any further question regarding Kano, I can help. I used to play both cybernetic and commando Kano for a while, so I know most of his ins and outs.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Kano ball (-20), Up ball (-27), and ex Black Dragon ball (-14) can all be punished with b12 xx freeze, but ex Uprise ball (-5) is completely safe. I recommend practicing these because the timing is odd, early punishes result with an airborne opponent. Eye burst/ ex eye blast (-11) are punished by reversal slide. I see a lot of Kano players do this in pressure strings, and we don't need to respect it. Knife toss (-11) is only punishable point blank by either 11 or slide. Multi blades is amazing as it beats clone and is +5 on block.

In the corner, you can set up clones in such a way that counters every armored wake up option Kano has, as long as Kano is immediately checked with d4. D4 burns Kano's armor on both ex uprise ball and black dragon ball before he connects with clone, giving you a refreeze into either damage or set ups into the same situation. Multi blades has no armor, so he waste a bar. Note: This is general tech which @Tom Brady mentioned long ago in the GM guide, but it's nice here because it negates any wake up attack Kano has. The one draw back is that the proximity of the clone is too close for shatter combos. Some players will notice this and may disrespect your future shatter set ups. These shatter setups are out of ex uprise ball range and will make Kano's only real armor option the black dragon ball, which is unsafe.

Input is any corner BnB ended with "... njp, (late) njk <land> clone, d4"
 
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I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
You are correct, you can punish regular kano ball with b12 for 27%. You can also punish his upball with b12 as well. The trick is to wait for Kano to fall a little (his feet must be a in before touching the floor) and buffer b12. When you do this, kano is put on a ground state and you can continue your combo. It is just the same way, you would punish mileena telekick, just gotta wait a little before hitting them.

Also, if you guys have any further question regarding Kano, I can help. I used to play both cybernetic and commando Kano for a while, so I know most of his ins and outs.
Kano ball, Up ball, and ex Black Dragon ball can all be punished with b12 xx freeze. ex Uprise ball is completely safe. Eye burst is punished by reversal slide, ex Eye blast is not. Knife toss is only punishable point blank by either 11 or slide.

Planning on editing this post later with how to beat wake up anything with clone and d4. You can imagine what that'll look like.
Are you guys talking before the most recent patch? Because patch notes say it went from -27, to -5. Patch hasn't hit PC yet but that's pretty much in punishable on block if that's the case, you may be able to whiff punish with something
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I just tested this today on the current patch. Which move is -5? I'll edit the previous post a bit later, I didn't have the time to include frame data. It's taco night and a man has his priorities.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I just tested this today on the current patch. Which move is -5? I'll edit the previous post a bit later, I didn't have the time to include frame data. It's taco night and a man has his priorities.
Says in patch notes Kanos Up-Ball is -5. If this is the case it's unpunishable.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I feel like that /should/ be ex uprise ball. Can't punish that unless read and bait with a back dash or something.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I don't have the new patch so like I said, I don't know. Regular Up-Ball on the new patch is definitely not -5? What is it then? Unchanged? That means it's easily B12 punish right :)
 

boba_buster

Noob saibot
I dunno bout offline but online inferno is the cheapest piece of crap I've ever seen , all they do is jump in over and over till they connect into that stupid long combo. All I can do is block until I'm dead , there is abosolutly no room to do anything . Playing a good one anyway
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
I dunno bout offline but online inferno is the cheapest piece of crap I've ever seen , all they do is jump in over and over till they connect into that stupid long combo. All I can do is block until I'm dead , there is abosolutly no room to do anything . Playing a good one anyway
Online scorpion is a god, in that mu you have to make solid reads and and wait for them to hang themselves. Don't chase them persay just allow them to hurl themself into you ice clone beautiful grip and then reward them....with DEATH!!!!