Question Sub Zero b121 and b124 mix up game?

[DyllanIsYoDaddy]

I was wondering if the b121 and b124 strings are actually useful in game, because if the opponent is blocking high you can end with 4, which hits low. And no one really expects it. What are your thoughts on it?

 

[SilverKeyMan]

b121 - Third hit can be blocked high or low.
b124 - Third hit MUST be blocked low.
No real mixup game here. Both strings can be blocked high,high,low.

I'd rather do the following:
222 - Third hit MUST be blocked high.
22,Slide - Third hit MUST be blocked low.

 

[Mechacide]

b121 - Third hit can be blocked high or low.
b124 - Third hit MUST be blocked low.
No real mixup game here. Both strings can be blocked high,high,low.

I'd rather do the following:
222 - Third hit MUST be blocked high.
22,Slide - Third hit MUST be blocked low.

Actually, it is a perfect mixup in that each ender hits OH or low, and hits at the same time. However, both options can be jumped out of and grant the opp a full combo, so it's moot.

Lock?

 

[SilverKeyMan]

Hold on... the third hit of b121 hits overhead? Are you sure? I thought only the second hit was overhead.

 

[DyllanIsYoDaddy]

Im pretty sure it is an overhead.

 

[Aboolayla]

Actually this is something I do alot with sub online that most people dont see but instead I do it like this. lets say you landed 22 iceball and your opponant is frozen what I do alot instead of finishing my combos with 214 slide i do b121 because it leaves them standing and in a stagger state that you can take advantage of. meaning while in stagger I have the choice of:
1)throw
2)slide(low)
3)Another b121 if the opponent doesnt like blocking
4) or f4 because it hits overhead and you can combo off of it

When you land the b121 your left at a frame advantage like JC nutpunch and you have a lot of choices. IDK this is what I like to do with my sub and i'm just giving feedback.

also dont use the b12b4 string because it leaves the opponent right in front of your face with the choice of a wakeup instead use b12 slide because it pushes them further creating space and I think it does more damage too.

 

[Beat11]

Yeah, they can jump out IF you commit to it everytime. You could just clone after the second hit to deliver your regular clone strings to make jumping dangerous. I've seen Denzel use it to continue pressure like the nutpunch or something. Combine that with the speed of slide as a fast low and you can effectively make your opponent guess your next move. If they choose not to take any risk by always blocking low for the slide and jump when they see you go into the next move, you can always just clone the string to force them further to the corner.

This is not going to be the next big thing for Sub or powerful like the nutpunch reset. It just another tool to use to add to our arsenal.

 

[Aboolayla]

This is not going to be the next big thing for Sub or powerful like the nutpunch reset. It just another tool to use to add to our arsenal.

True

 

[Screamo Luvr]

Has b121 mixup only recently started to be used? I have only ever seen one sub zero use it, and that was online. The startup is slow, so I'm afraid to use it a lot of the time...

 

[Metalic]

Has b121 mixup only recently started to be used? I have only ever seen one sub zero use it, and that was online. The startup is slow, so I'm afraid to use it a lot of the time...

Fairly recently, mostly since people saw Denzel use it at EVO. You don't fish for it, do it after a freeze for advantage on hit.

This is not going to be the next big thing for Sub or powerful like the nutpunch reset. It just another tool to use to add to our arsenal.

Agree completely. Really liking how this game's "technology" is coming out at the pace it is. A new, small wrinkle every little while to just play with and stow away. Nothing breaking, but enough to keep things somewhat fresh.

 

[Screamo Luvr]

Fairly recently, mostly since people saw Denzel use it at EVO. You don't fish for it, do it after a freeze for advantage on hit.





Agree completely. Really liking how this game's "technology" is coming out at the pace it is. A new, small wrinkle every little while to just play with and stow away. Nothing breaking, but enough to keep things somewhat fresh.

In theory, couldn't you just freeze, b121, 22 freeze, b121, rinse and repeat until you get to the corner?

 

[Metalic]

In theory, couldn't you just freeze, b121, 22 freeze, b121, rinse and repeat until you get to the corner?

If they try to poke/don't block after b121, yes. The follow up after b121 is blockable, like all frame traps. At worst you get a string in to a clone or slide, or a dash up throw attempt.

 

[Screamo Luvr]

If they try to poke/don't block after b121, yes. The follow up after b121 is blockable, like all frame traps. At worst you get a string in to a clone or slide, or a dash up throw attempt.

So how should the mixup be used? Do it once then attempt full combo? Do it until corner if they don't block? Should one use this mixup every time they have an opportunity to do it on a frozen opponent?

 

[salvificblood]

So how should the mixup be used? Do it once then attempt full combo? Do it until corner if they don't block? Should one use this mixup every time they have an opportunity to do it on a frozen opponent?

You should dash in and 214, clone on block or 214, slide on hit. 214 is a great string in those situations just because it's so easily hit confirmed. You can then start dashing up and throwing them after b121. The throw adds 12%.

 

[Metalic]

So how should the mixup be used? Do it once then attempt full combo? Do it until corner if they don't block? Should one use this mixup every time they have an opportunity to do it on a frozen opponent?

22 freeze, JIP b121, dash up then either: throw attempt/22~freeze, or 224~clone/214~clone on block or 214~slide on hit. If they start trying to interrupt the 21(4/2) strings, then do a 21~clone to catch them in a clone if they try to avoid the string. Obviously there's a few others you can do, but these are the more common. Someone please correct me if I've made a mistake.

 

[demonlos]

Just wanted to point out that the b121 stagger mixup had been discussed as far as 3 months ago. I believe TAMANAPANTS first brought it to the forums. Anyways it definitely has its uses.

There was some discussion a few posts earlier about using b121 for hit confirms. I'd like peoples consideration of b121 as a combo ender - for example:

- JPS, 22~Ice Ball, JPS, b121 = 29/30% damage (for some reason the damage in training mode can change by 1%?).

Ok, so I can imagine you are sitting there thinking - but I can get 2-3% more for doing:

- JPS, 22~Ice Ball, JPS, 214~Slide.

Here is my thinking for mix up and some matches for using the first combo for positional and advantage on opponent "state" after the combo. The first combo, despite doing less damage, allows Sub Zero huge frame advantage. It also does not knockdown! So basically if you do the top b121 ender and then dash you are still at good advantage. So what advantages outside of pure frames do I see to this:

- You can pressure with 22 (the chip alone would effectively give you the 2-3% you lost on slide). This would also kill any ability for your opponent to jump away or counter cross up. Another small advantage here is by the time you have made up the 2-3% you lost on slide, you gave your opponent a little less meter and got yourself more for them having to block you next string!
- You could pressure with throw/tick throw for an added 12%.
- You could get sneaky and go for dash Ice Puddle, or Ex Ice Buddle that has the potential to connect as they are coming out of recovery.
- You won't be running the risk of facing a wake up move with invincibility as would be the case after a slide. Characters with no moves with invincibility would be in instant lockdown until you end your follow up string.
- You have plenty of plus frames to setup a nice ice clone without the fear of an enhanced special or reversal.
- Not an advantage in anyway, but b121 looks amazing as a combo - love the way Sub holds the pose on the 3rd hit.

I think there are some good reasons to go with this combo over the normal slide ender, for the positional and rushdown advantage it could give. Giving up a bit of damage for positional advantage is worth considering....right?

It needs some exploring as this came to me this morning whilst walking my dogs at 5:00 am before work, but I tested quickly and think it might have legs. Would appreciate other players thoughts?

 

[Screamo Luvr]

Great stuff!

22 freeze, JIP b121, dash up then either: throw attempt/22~freeze, or 224~clone/214~clone on block or 214~slide on hit. If they start trying to interrupt the 21(4/2) strings, then do a 21~clone to catch them in a clone if they try to avoid the string. Obviously there's a few others you can do, but these are the more common. Someone please correct me if I've made a mistake.

You should dash in and 214, clone on block or 214, slide on hit. 214 is a great string in those situations just because it's so easily hit confirmed. You can then start dashing up and throwing them after b121. The throw adds 12%.

Wow, this is all so great. I will try to add this into my play style. Right now, though, most of my problems are problems stemmed from being new to fighting games. For instance, I am trying really hard to work on hit confirm, but I only play online so it can be frustrating at times. Also, I tend to f*ck up my pressure all the time. I accidentally do 222 or do something stupid like mess up a string ant2: But yeah, this mixup will help me a lot. Thanks guys. :bigsmile:

 

[DyllanIsYoDaddy]

Yeah. Ive been messing around with it all day. Good to add into your game.

 

[Wildabeast]

You should dash in and 214, clone on block or 214, slide on hit. 214 is a great string in those situations just because it's so easily hit confirmed. You can then start dashing up and throwing them after b121. The throw adds 12%.

You can also every so often throw in an F4 or a sweep, I find B121 works best when cornering the opponent because you dont have to dash in.

 

[Massicus]

I usually do 22 iceball-> 2,1,4 and then a slide.
Use a clone when they wake up and when I notice that they hold block because they are afraid to move I usually do a grab Immidiatly after that combo ending with a slide, usually hits.

 

[Wildabeast]

So how should the mixup be used? Do it once then attempt full combo? Do it until corner if they don't block? Should one use this mixup every time they have an opportunity to do it on a frozen opponent?

Hasn't really been tested enough to say for sure, this is definitely not as dangerous as the Nut Punch though. Sub Zero can't pressure up close nearly as well as JC can.