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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Yeah, but through scaling, those 77 more hitpoints mean more because damage is scaled by 75% when the characters are below 15%.
One throw would win the match for either character at that point, or whoever gets the next hit, essentially.
 
Think about it this way. Cammy has 900 health, Ken has 1000. You start the game off doing three 230 damage combos in a row.

Cammy takes 230 + 230 + (230 x .95) = 679 damage taken / 221 health remain

Ken takes 230 + 230 + 230 = 690 damage taken / 310 health remain

Cammy just gained 11 hitpoints of that 100 hitpoint deficit back. Now the next 230 damage combo on Cammy will do only 90% because she is below 30% but Ken is above 30% so it will deal 95% to him.

Cammy takes (230 x .90) = 207 damage taken

221 - 207 = 14 health remain

Ken takes (230 x .95) = 219 damage taken

310 - 219 = 91 health remain

Ken only has 77 more hitpoints than Cammy even though the same 4 combos were performed on them. In this scenario, Cammy gained 23 of those 100 hitpoints back just because of the way the scaling works.
I dunno why I'd think about it like that. It's incorrect.

Ken has 1000hp

500
200/.95= 210.5
150/.9= 166.7
150/.75= 200

1077 effective hp when rounded

Cammy has 900

450/1= 450
180/.95= 189.47
135/.9= 150
135/.75= 180

970 ehp when rounded.

So a difference of 107 hp when scaling is accounted for. Not 100% sure how smoothly capcom scales it, but I highly doubt its like it is in your post where it doesn't start scaling until after a combo ends. Assuming it adjusts constantly it means you're gonna have to do 107 more dmg to kill ken(could be less if it only calculates the scaling after a hit takes place).

It seems insignificant but trust me, I've won and lost thousands of rounds when I or my opponent had 107 or less hp left.

I'm not saying this makes cammy bad, but saying it's irrelevant to game balance is just an ignorant statement.

Edit: just for knowledge gief sits at 1131 ehp.
 
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LionHeart

Whisper within a sigh
I dunno why I'd think about it like that. It's incorrect.

Ken has 1000hp

500
200/.95= 210.5
150/.9= 166.7
150/.75= 200

1077 effective hp when rounded

Cammy has 900

450/1= 450
180/.95= 189.47
135/.9= 150
135/.75= 180

970 ehp when rounded.

So a difference of 107 hp when scaling is accounted for. Not 100% sure how smoothly capcom scales it, but I highly doubt its like it is in your post where it doesn't start scaling until after a combo ends. Assuming it adjusts constantly it means you're gonna have to do 107 more dmg to kill ken(could be less if it only calculates the scaling after a hit takes place).

It seems insignificant but trust me, I've won and lost thousands of rounds when I or my opponent had 107 or less hp left.

I'm not saying this makes cammy bad, but saying it's irrelevant to game balance is just an ignorant statement.

Edit: just for knowledge gief sits at 1131 ehp.
In USFIV damage was scaled dynamically throughout the combo, so I don't they they changed it. I knew something was off in his calculations.

Also the scaling thresholds are 50%, 25% and 15% for 95%/90%/75% respectively.
 
In USFIV damage was scaled dynamically throughout the combo, so I don't they they changed it. I knew something was off in his calculations.
yeah that's what I remember. Pretty sure it still works like that, regardless though even in his own calculations the difference is significant. That ken at 91 hp survives a ryu sweep or a jab jab xx non ex special, cammy dies to either. That's important. Not in every match or every round, but in enough that it's statistically relevant.
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
In USFIV damage was scaled dynamically throughout the combo, so I don't they they changed it. I knew something was off in his calculations.

Also the scaling thresholds are 50%, 25% and 15% for 95%/90%/75% respectively.
Actually, you might be right, lol.

The thresholds you might be right about. I've heard multiple things now.
 
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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
FUCK THE NUMBERS amirite?
Well, the numbers can still benefit Cammy.

I took this example straight out of training mode. Balrog does st.MK~MP dash straight 3 times (150 dmg each) then does raw CA (330 dmg). The CA only does 313 on Cammy but does the full 330 on Ken. So Cammy gains back 17 hitpoints in that scenario.

Sure, it doesn't always work out that way but it can definitely benefit the lower health character, making that 100 hitpoints difference not as significant as it seems. Especially since Cammy has fairly high damage output herself.

The point was that having less health hasn't held SF characters back in the past with Yun, Seth and Evil Ryu, so why would it now? It's just a minor con of Cammy amongst many pros.
 
Well, the numbers can still benefit Cammy.

I took this example straight out of training mode. Balrog does st.MK~MP dash straight 3 times (150 dmg each) then does raw CA (330 dmg). The CA only does 313 on Cammy but does the full 330 on Ken. So Cammy gains back 17 hitpoints in that scenario.

Sure, it doesn't always work out that way but it can definitely benefit the lower health character, making that 100 hitpoints difference not as significant as it seems. Especially since Cammy has fairly high damage output herself.

The point was that having less health hasn't held SF characters back in the past with Yun, Seth and Evil Ryu, so why would it now? It's just a minor con of Cammy amongst many pros.
still bad math. 313 dmg is a higher % of cammys health than 330 is of kens. I'd rather do 35% of a characters hp than 33%, regardless of what the number is.

And absolutely it's never held SOME characters back, but there's no one balance mechanic that's ever universally stopped characters from being good. There have been top tiers with low hp, low stun, bad normals, low combo dmg, low range, bad anti airs, no invincible reversals, etc. just because characters can be strong with weaknesses doesn't mean those weaknesses become irrelevant. Give E. ryu 1050 hp and watch what happens.

Also it's pretty funny that you set up a training mode situation where cammy has exactly 50% hp left, like that will EVER happen in a real game.
 
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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
still bad math. 313 dmg is a higher % of cammys health than 330 is of kens. I'd rather do 35% of a characters hp than 33%, regardless of what the number is.

And absolutely it's never held SOME characters back, but there's no one balance mechanic that's ever universally stopped characters from being good. There have been top tiers with low hp, low stun, bad normals, low combo dmg, low range, bad anti airs, no invincible reversals, etc. just because characters can be strong with weaknesses doesn't mean those weaknesses become irrelevant. Give E. ryu 1050 hp and watch what happens.
It's not bad math. It's just math that shows that the health scaling benefits the character with lesser health sometimes. You were arguing that it actually benefits the higher health character, which I proved is not always the case. I feel like you think that I'm saying that having less health is actually better than having more health. Of course having more health is better. It's just not as significant as it appears on the surface due to many factors.

One factor is the damage scaling based on health. Another factor is damage output vs health.

If 100 health was as important as you make it out to be, Gief wouldn't be bottom tier.
 
It's not bad math. It's just math that shows that the health scaling benefits the character with lesser health sometimes. You were arguing that it actually benefits the higher health character, which I proved is not always the case. I feel like you think that I'm saying that having less health is actually better than having more health. Of course having more health is better. It's just not as significant as it appears on the surface due to many factors.

One factor is the damage scaling based on health. Another factor is damage output vs health.

If 100 health was as important as you make it out to be, Gief wouldn't be bottom tier.
it is bad math or at the very least dishonest math. it still does less dmg to ken overall in the statistically unlikely event of 450 damage exact into a raw super. Even in the most beneficial scenario that you can dream up she still takes more damage than ken(not to mention how dishonest it is to ignore the remaining hp and how much damage it will take after to kill them.
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
it is bad math or at the very least dishonest math. it still does less dmg to ken overall in the statistically unlikely event of 450 damage exact into a raw super. Even in the most beneficial scenario that you can dream up she still takes more damage than ken(not to mention how dishonest it is to ignore the remaining hp and how much damage it will take after to kill them.
It's not dishonest at all. I'm saying that the health scaling benefits the lower health character. You are saying the opposite. You keep going back to the overall health while completely ignoring the health scaling. Of course having more health is better.

I just want to ask you, does the health scaling help Cammy? Would she be better off if it wasn't in the game?
 
It's not dishonest at all. I'm saying that the health scaling benefits the lower health character. You are saying the opposite. You keep going back to the overall health while completely ignoring the health scaling. Of course having more health is better.

I just want to ask you, does the health scaling help Cammy? Would she be better off if it wasn't in the game?
yes she'd be better off. She'd have 100 total less ehp than a 1k hp character in all situations instead of 100-107.

More health to scale is better than less health to scale.

Especially in a real match where a large portion of your damage comes from stray hits and pokes instead of oddly specific low damage combos into a wake up super.
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
yes she'd be better off. She'd have 100 total less ehp than a 1k hp character in all situations instead of 100-107.

More health to scale is better than less health to scale.
Ok, so where did you get the 107 number? Or at least give me an example of something I can test in training mode where she takes more damage than a 1k character because of the scaling.
 
Ok, so where did you get the 107 number? Or at least give me an example of something I can test in training mode where she takes more damage than a 1k character because of the scaling.
i posted the math.

She's not taking more damage because of the scaling but it's taking a higher amount of damage extra to kill ken than her because of the scaling. He's getting a greater benefit out of it than she is. It's good for her, just better for him.
 
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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
i posted the math.
The problem with that is it doesn't account for in game situations. The scaling doesn't occur mid hit, only after each hit. It also doesn't account for when the scaling kicks in. Can you give me an in-game example where I can test it? Same combos done to each character but the higher health character takes less damage. Any situation, as long as the exact same thing is performed on both characters.
 
The problem with that is it doesn't account for in game situations. The scaling doesn't occur mid hit, only after each hit. It also doesn't account for when the scaling kicks in. Can you give me an in-game example where I can test it? Same combos done to each character but the higher health character takes less damage. Any situation, as long as the exact same thing is performed on both characters.
its never going to work like that. It's not how or why it works. A larger number of hit points yields a larger number of effective hit points when accounting for the same damage resistance.

500 hp at 100% dmg is always better than 450 at 100%.

200 damage at 95% damage is always better than 180 at 95%.

Ryu/ken gain more effective health from the scaling because their pool is larger. Cammy getting brought into the scaling levels earlier is not a benefit in most scenarios. it obviously can be gamed with damage numbers, but doing it the other way around(500 dmg total into a raw ca is way more beneficial for a ryu/ken than the 450 dmg one is for cammy.)

Not to mention cammys lower hp makes it entirely possible to blow through her whole health bar without scaling, do a 400 damage combo into ca vs her and vs ryu. The difference matters. Or do that same ca after she takes 629 damage and you can outright kill her without her getting any of the 90/75% scaling.
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
its never going to work like that. It's not how or why it works. A larger number of hit points yields a larger number of effective hit points when accounting for the same damage resistance.

500 hp at 100% dmg is always better than 450 at 100%.

200 damage at 95% damage is always better than 180 at 95%.

Ryu/ken gain more effective health from the scaling because their pool is larger. Cammy getting brought into the scaling levels earlier is not a benefit in most scenarios. it obviously can be gamed with damage numbers, but doing it the other way around(500 dmg total into a raw ca is way more beneficial for a ryu/ken than the 450 dmg one is for cammy.)

Not to mention cammys lower hp makes it entirely possible to blow through her whole health bar without scaling, do a 400 damage combo into ca vs her and vs ryu. The difference matters. Or do that same ca after she takes 629 damage and you can outright kill her without her getting any of the 90/75% scaling.
You are doing everything you can to avoid answering the question. You seem to keep gravitating back to the point that it's better to have more health, which is obvious. If you could blow through Cammy's whole health bar without scaling taking place then you would have been able to do that anyway.

The question is, does damage scaling help or hurt the low health characters? Everything you are saying would be exactly the same without the mechanic at all. You could prove your point by coming up with an example that shows that Cammy would be better off without the mechanic at all. It was fairly easy for me to come up with an example, so it should be equally easy for you, if you are correct.
 
You are doing everything you can to avoid answering the question. You seem to keep gravitating back to the point that it's better to have more health, which is obvious. If you could blow through Cammy's whole health bar without scaling taking place then you would have been able to do that anyway.

The question is, does damage scaling help or hurt the low health characters? Everything you are saying would be exactly the same without the mechanic at all. You could prove your point by coming up with an example that shows that Cammy would be better off without the mechanic at all. It was fairly easy for me to come up with an example, so it should be equally easy for you, if you are correct.
I can't explain this any simpler than this.

The same % of two numbers is larger if one of the other numbers is.

So if 1000 hp is what you have. And you have 20% damage resistance you gain more hp from the resistance than someone who has 900 hp and 20% damage resistance.

I'm not failing to answer your question, I'm just not confused by the concept of percentages and damage reduction.

Is it possible that cammy can take less damage(number wise not % wise) than other characters in extreme circumstances, yes. Are the small subset of situations in which this happens greatly outweighed by the infinitely larger group of scenarios where it doesn't work out this way? Yes. Obviously.