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General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
For mileena low block unless she has meter. Tele, ball and ex ball are all punishable as fuck. D4 is good for spacing. Every punish leads to a meter less vortex
 

PANDEMlC

El Psy Congroo
Hey guys PC finally got the Shinnok buff update so I'm finally going to start learning him. Going through bnbs right now. But I'm curious he seems so limited in his strings what do you guys use as your core normals and specials in your average game? F2 seems great and his d4 looks solid but is there anything else? Seems like hell sparks for mid range anti air and mb pressure if blocked but is there something else? Basically what I'm asking is what do you think is core to know in game as Shinnok, highest priority strings, normals, setups, gameplans, specials, etc. Would be very much appreciated if anyone cares to inform me. If not, that's cool too, I'll eventually get around to all at some point in time.
 

SPY

Noob
Hey guys PC finally got the Shinnok buff update so I'm finally going to start learning him. Going through bnbs right now. But I'm curious he seems so limited in his strings what do you guys use as your core normals and specials in your average game? F2 seems great and his d4 looks solid but is there anything else? Seems like hell sparks for mid range anti air and mb pressure if blocked but is there something else? Basically what I'm asking is what do you think is core to know in game as Shinnok, highest priority strings, normals, setups, gameplans, specials, etc. Would be very much appreciated if anyone cares to inform me. If not, that's cool too, I'll eventually get around to all at some point in time.
Strings and Normals.
112[3] - 9f high mid mid overhead, hit confirmable string. Semi safe on block, last hit is untechable overhead, but there will be gap if you use it. Good close range punish string and ok as jump in hit confirmable string. Mix up string in Bone Shaper.
f22[4] - 17f mid mid mid, hit confirmable string. Good range, but unsafe on block, last hit launches limiting your combos. Your mid screen wiff punisher and pressure starter, can be used as combo filler. Cancel into HSmb on block for safe pressure.
f22[1+3] - 19f mid mid, Bone Shaper specific string. Very unsafe on block, last hit restands at 0 on hit, but won't come out on block. Mainly combo filler, but can be used as poor restand.
f4 - 7f(?) low. Semi safe on block. Close range low starter, fast punisher and mix-up tool.
f41d2 - 7f(?) low mid overhead, Bone Shaper specific hit confirmable string. Safe on block. Very good close range punish, jump in, mix-up and pressure blockstring.
b3 - 18f overhead. Unsafe on block. Close range overhead launcher, slow and unsafe but only one of the two 50\50 tools Shinnok has.
d1 - 6f mid. Unsafe on block. Close range poke. Good for counter poking, and as pressure starter.
d2 - 7f mid. Very unsafe on block, but have great pushback. Close range uppercut. Good as high's counter and AA, can be used as combo filler.
d4 - 11f low. Safe on block. Ranged footsie tool and pressure starter. Can be used as hit confirm for HS.
ji1 - 6f overhead. Fast jump attack. Used as jip and combo filler, possible AA.
ji2 - 10f overhead. Decent range jump attack. Mainly used as jip, possible AA.
nj1\2 - 9f overhead. Very short range jump attack. AA and wiff punisher.
nj3\4 - 7f overhead. Safe on block and have great pushback. Fast, big downward hitbox and tons of active frames. Very good meaty jump attack.
Other normals and strings are very situation\combo specific.
Specials.
Only one, all variations, special worth mentioning is Hell Sparks - db2. 12f mid, half screen 3hit projectile. Launches on hit, but you cannon convert it into combo unless you MB it or catch opponent in the air. Unsafe on block unless MB which gives 24f advantage. exHS is 6f and one of his AA's. Shinnok staple special, it gives him safe zoning, safe strings, pressure, mix-up\vortex, AA, damaging combos.
Gameplan consists staying at mid screen (Hell Sparks) range, baiting jumps, run or footsies and wiff punishing random normals or specials. You can occasionally zone with variation specific projectiles to force opponent to close in. In corner you can try to mix em-up. Shinnok is very meter dependent - he needs it to have safe zoning, to use mix-ups and vortex, to have armored wake-up\reversal, to deal more than ~20% mid screen.
Impostor have additional mobility and he can be rush down heavy with it, plus he have true vortex and major damage burst with Mimicry. Bone Shaper have meterless hit confirmable mix-ups, armored mid screen launcher, plus gimmicky restand. Necromancer is more zoning heavy variation.
 
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RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
Yeah no. Shinnok at best is a mid tier, somewhat viable character.

To answer @xSMoKEx 's question, I play Necro/Impostor and what I typically do is use d1, d4, b2 as it's safe and advances him forward a bit for whatever suits your purpose, I typically do a b2 if they block a jip1/2. b1 is eh, I guess you can do some stuff off of it. f4 is a great footsie tool as the low does inch him up farther.

Another thing to realize: You're playing a mid tier character at best. There will be times where you likely shouldn't try to counterpoke and just walk back, block, do whatever it takes to make your opponent hang themselves. I find it funny Kenshi got all these buffs, but the character with the least amount of time put in gets a 17-18 frame overhead, low damage, uses all his meter to make himself safe etc... I dunno.

Someone mentioned a matchup thread. I think the main problem is that the Shinnok community is really all split up. I haven't even fought all variations for each character yet and that to me would be important since this game drastically alters the matchup with it. I couldn't just talk about characters generally. Eventually one will be made but Shinnok is still a character that struggles mightily and does not get a lot of tournament play even compared to lower tiers.
 

xXstealthflameXx

Finding a Main
Guise guise guise...so defensive :DOGE Obviously he's not top five. I just versed my first intelligent Shinnok and needed to show my unappreciation for the overhead and ex on block special buffs he got. I think he's top 15 tho :p
 

RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
Guise guise guise...so defensive :DOGE Obviously he's not top five. I just versed my first intelligent Shinnok and needed to show my unappreciation for the overhead and ex on block special buffs he got. I think he's top 15 tho :p
I honestly believe you can easily react to b3 (the overhead) because it is not a part of a string and it's a raw normal overhead that's 18 frames whereas f4 (his low that can be special cancelled) is a bit faster and generally you won't see Shinnok players delay the b3 on oki because of it's long start up and having to guess if you delayed wakeup or not.

The overhead is not as good as people think it is. While it is nice to have it for sure, it certainly still didn't fix his problems. In fact only EX Hellsparks on block fixed one.
 

xXstealthflameXx

Finding a Main
I honestly believe you can easily react to b3 (the overhead) because it is not a part of a string and it's a raw normal overhead that's 18 frames whereas f4 (his low that can be special cancelled) is a bit faster and generally you won't see Shinnok players delay the b3 on oki because of it's long start up and having to guess if you delayed wakeup or not.

The overhead is not as good as people think it is. While it is nice to have it for sure, it certainly still didn't fix his problems. In fact only EX Hellsparks on block fixed one.
18f is not reactable...
 

Helter Skelter

CHIPPINGxTRAPPINGxZONING
I do think Shinnok is a good character and has some of the best legit screen control (not derpy spam). However, he is plagued by awkward frame data and normals/special moves that have no real purpose.

I know he doesn't sit very high in the tier list but he is good and highly competitive. I was very naive at first but as I gravitated towards Necromancer I stared to understand him better. HE IS A GOOD CHARACTER.

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Firstly, MB'ing Hell Sparks on block does decent chip and builds good meter but it's not enough to bring up a tier. Firstly, it actually allows him to pressure you correctly at the cost of a bar. Good but not broken. "He deals +30% chip for 3 bars!?"

Or you could just use his safe tracking X-Ray which can't be broken.

Secondly, he got an overhead which he needed because he had no real mixup AND had no real damage. The latter is still true unless you fight certain characters as Impostor. So what did we get? An 18f overhead that -11f on block.. Do we think that actually make him jump up that much in rank? If it was 18f startup but was -7f on block, cool.

One feels like a fix considering the frame data that predated it and the other is a well deserved addition to what was a very incomplete character.

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He has many hitbox issues that still need addressing. Especially, after Scepter Launch in Bone Shaper. Standing 3 not hitting unless Shinnok's nose is touching his opponents. Etc.

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Awkward frame data.. Everything that isn't a core button startups in 16f or more. I can deal with that. What I can't deal with is massively unnecessary recovery frames on hit.

Shinnok's Charging Shoulder move should be at least 4f less on hit. Allow 3,1,2 xx Shoulder ~ Shoulder not be a ridiculously tight link that can't be used consistently online. That would actually give him a 26% meterless combo mid-screen.

I think it can be said that most Bone Shaper's here don't use the last hit of Shinnok's F3 and F4 strings. If that move had like 5 frames less recovery you would be able to combo off it consistently in the corner. What's wrong with string only being comboable in the corner, why did the design that string that way?

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Useless special moves... This is my biggest issue. The character has 4 strings, give or take. Most of them actually have purpose. What is Hell Blast meant to do besides be really fast? Why use Amulet Curse when we can just meter burn Hell Sparks on block and it become a hit-confirm that builds more meter, does more chip and grants more advantage? Why not have the main Villian actually steal his opponents BEST MOVE?

If Hell Blast at the very least had two more additional pillars that move would be decent. It would be fast startup high scaling but extend his presence further that the traditional Hell Spark, thus making it a unique move. If it launched high enough, you could get a Teleport for Okizeme, a Dark Beam or a Summoned Fiend after it. That's all it would take to make that move decent.. Two more pillars.

Amulet Curse could just be a safe amored move that doesn't grant pressure but let's you escape it.

Make Judgement Smash come out even on a trade or have armor and be unsafe.

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That's why I don't think he's not Top 10-15, but I also don't think you need to compete at the games current stage.
He is a good character and I can't downplay that, but two changes don't suddenly make this character a beast, it makes him viable.
 
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I've said this before and I doubt I'm the only one annoyed by it, but why the hell is his standing3 hitting Mid?

The move is a stomp, the opponent reacts like they've just been hit in the leg or foot. What sense does that make?

This just really annoys me. Probably more than it should.
 
I think a very cool buff for Impostor would be to have a different command for the stolen move (like df1 for example) so you can always use the Mimicry move itself. That way he would have vortex on every character and you would have a choice to go for the damage or for the vortex with characters whose moves don't allow a combo continuation. That would allow you to hold on to very specific moves like combo Endesr, projectiles, or anti airs without suffering the loss of such an important tool as mimicry standing reset.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
I can poke Scorpion's 18 frame f4 so yeah. If we're talking online it'll always be more difficult.
You do realize you're saying you can react in like less than twelve frames? Do you have an offline person to play against that you could have mix up between b3 and other moves? Make a video of you poking out of b3 but still blocking anything else. I'm also going to edit in a link to something I want you to try.

Edit: here it is http://puu.sh/48rFU.swf
Let's see your 12 frame results. @RM_NINfan101
 
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RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
You do realize you're saying you can react in like less than twelve frames? Do you have an offline person to play against that you could have mix up between b3 and other moves? Make a video of you poking out of b3 but still blocking anything else. I'm also going to edit in a link to something I want you to try
I mean Shinnok has a d1 poke that's 6 frames and his d4 low profiles a ton of shit. I could be getting lucky with the d4. I dunno, this game has so much goofy stuff I tend to just forget about it and play and if it works, it works. Typically though the animation on that overhead is pretty telling. The game also doesn't really let you fuzzy guard so you have to be expecting it at times so...

I guess what I'm trying to say, is maybe I'm not reacting to it because I was getting hit by Scorp's F4 a lot earlier, but please don't take your frustrations out on me for me saying Shinnok's B3 isn't that great. It's got small range and most moves in this game are way faster than 18 frames. As an oki tool? It's alright but delay wake up long enough and it'll whiff and Shinnok is kinda fucked there.