Match-up Discussion POST PATCH: Discussion Smokes new tier positioning

[ForeverKing]

I TOLD ALL OF YOU JAX WAS A PROBLEM AND NOONE BELIVED ME LOOK AT CD JR JAX.....RAPE

jax is one of my mains. i love jax lol. i destroy everyone with him :jax:

 

[FrothyOmen]

King. Could you hook up with one of the 360 smoke players and grind matches? Even if they're online, we can at least get a better feel for how to approach the Jax matchup. It's one I don't understand at all and I'm sure a lot of the other smoke players at least are uncomfortable with if not worse. I'd ask personally but I'm not exactly on a high enough level or active enough (damn college) to be grinding out games like that :\

Or you can just leave us in the dark and body us

 

[kandehbar]

I never said smoke had a problem with jax all i said was jax is top tier, most of yall brushed it off if yall read the whol thread. In the jax match up teleport is good since it wiffs vs dash punch so you dont get cornered as easily.

 

[G4S KT]

Ive played CD Jr's jax. It's fucking scary.

I still say Smoke's 3 worst match ups (in order) are:

Jax
Nightwolf
Sektor

 

[kandehbar]

kt are you serious? dude Smoke rips kenshi to nothiness Smoke bomb RAPES KENSHI i mean wtf can kenshi do to smoke bomb. I think personally reptile and kabal is smoke bane

TBH, anyone who can safely avoid smoke bomb gives smoke a hard time.
But kenshi???? just cause he cant shake clones, nah brah smoke rapes kenshi easy

Nightwolf too??? nah d3 beats shoulder every time, it can even bet ex shoulder and shoulder is the ONLY reason nightwolf is a threat imo. If you time it right D3 make him go low enough for the second hit of ex shoulder to wiff, by then he would have taken a d3 already then the second one interrupts, timming is strict though. But yeh man reptile is tough because as smart reptile will do a slow ball then dash in to cover it adding pressure. + one of his kicks i think its F4 is broke as shit in block strings dude, i got 7th at river city runbacks cause of that shit

 

[G4S KT]

For some reason everyone thinks that Smoke is weak against rush down and I don't know where or why that idea started but it definitely isn't true.

Smoke is weakest against characters that can successfully play keep away. And, when played defensively, all those characters can. And when you're playing CD Jr (who makes almost zero fuck ups) it's like playing a wall. The only thing you can do is play run away Smoke and hope they get impatient.

You're right about Kenshi though; I forgot that Smoke bomb/psychic clone trade is way in your favor. I'll take him off the list.

I haven't had my coffee yet.

EDIT: This list stems from my realization that Smoke is at his most disadvantage when he's forced to initiate offense. If you play an aggressive jax/nightwolf/sektor you're in much better shape than one that hangs back and waits.

 

[kandehbar]

Well i can see why you would say that but your got to remeber the only character you CANNOT trade with is subzero, so if your getting kept out get your damage in the trade, cause smoke bomb by its self does 6% on hit and the fall does 6% as well i mean i think the only person who can top that without meter is scarlets blood ball and you can trade with that all day

so i would say smoke biggest troble isnt kept away but lock down, anyone who can succesfully keep smoke from using smoke bomb = any one who out shines smoke at mid range and OUT FOOTSIE SMOKE.

Footsies is incredible to smoke midrange game and NOONE uses smokes best footsie tool, INVISIBILITY

 

[smokey]

Kenshi is a hard matchup for smoke when kenshi knows the matchup. Shouldnt be getting caught by smoke bombs atall, and shouldnt be trying to trade with smoke bomb, should just try to avoid/block it. Kenshi has a good poking game with his overhead swords and armoured launchers, and has tools for keeping you at full screen, where kenshi is strongest regardless of smokes tools. I would still say this match is in smokes favour, its just a fairly tricky match for both.

 

[G4S KT]

Well i can see why you would say that but your got to remeber the only character you CANNOT trade with is subzero, so if your getting kept out get your damage in the trade, cause smoke bomb by its self does 6% on hit and the fall does 6% as well i mean i think the only person who can top that without meter is scarlets blood ball and you can trade with that all day

so i would say smoke biggest troble isnt kept away but lock down, anyone who can succesfully keep smoke from using smoke bomb = any one who out shines smoke at mid range and OUT FOOTSIE SMOKE.

Footsies is incredible to smoke midrange game and NOONE uses smokes best footsie tool, INVISIBILITY

I don't find smoke bomb as important as you make it seem; no one who knows smoke at all will even be throwing projectiles to trade with and they will block dash past smoke bomb "pressure" with ease. I don't rely on it and (besides within combos) only use it for an occasional check while playing runaway or poking.

 

[kandehbar]

I promise smokebomb is used more then we all relize and the only person who has potential to keep smoke out is kenshi cause he cant shake his clones but we both know that kenshi < smoke bomb, getting kept out by anycharacter at full screen is human error, im not saying that it dont happen to me im just saying it shouldnt, Smoke is best while moving around the screen but midrange is his pivot point. When you can succesfully out shine smoke at mid range and bring him to the corner (while in combo) hes done. He can escape the corner but you need to keep your oppenet there which i think smoke lacks at doing corner control (his oki game is great) and his pressure with normals is great but he has no TRUE mix ups since he has no low starters, yeh you can make them commit to low with D4 and D3 and his sweep but i mean if you look at in the long range once they figure out that your plan is to hit your B2 its gonna be a long run after that)
Imo - Smokes whole game is centered around getting smoke bomb to connect. everything else is either just small punishment or movement, if smoke can use his smoke bomb and gets outshined mid range its over. LUCKLY not many characters can out shine smoke midrange and if they can they cant really lock out his smoke bomb.

Subzero, 5/5
Kabal , 4.5/5.5
Quan chi 6/4
reptile 5/5
jade 6/4
Shang Tsung 4/6 and 5/5

Those are the characters imo that can both stop smoke bomb and/or out shine his corner game if you have questions why jade is even on that list just ask

 

[hardwire]

I promise smokebomb is used more then we all relize and the only person who has potential to keep smoke out is kenshi cause he cant shake his clones but we both know that kenshi < smoke bomb, getting kept out by anycharacter at full screen is human error, im not saying that it dont happen to me im just saying it shouldnt, Smoke is best while moving around the screen but midrange is his pivot point. When you can succesfully out shine smoke at mid range and bring him to the corner (while in combo) hes done. He can escape the corner but you need to keep your oppenet there which i think smoke lacks at doing corner control (his oki game is great) and his pressure with normals is great but he has no TRUE mix ups since he has no low starters, yeh you can make them commit to low with D4 and D3 and his sweep but i mean if you look at in the long range once they figure out that your plan is to hit your B2 its gonna be a long run after that)
Imo - Smokes whole game is centered around getting smoke bomb to connect. everything else is either just small punishment or movement, if smoke can use his smoke bomb and gets outshined mid range its over. LUCKLY not many characters can out shine smoke midrange and if they can they cant really lock out his smoke bomb.

Subzero, 5/5
Kabal , 4.5/5.5
Quan chi 6/4
reptile 5/5
jade 6/4
Shang Tsung 4/6 and 5/5

Those are the characters imo that can both stop smoke bomb and/or out shine his corner game if you have questions why jade is even on that list just ask

ok im asking about jade

i know she is a good fighter but i have yet to be beaten online by her (and ive fought good ones) so what do i need to be looking out for?

 

[kandehbar]

well wake up flash gives her an auto escape or block string, Her flash kick is godly fast and her low bombrange really dampers your wake ups
the matchup is in smoke favor but im just saying that he midrange pokes wont beat your so you need to get in and flash stops smoke bomb is she makes you conscious of it

 

[hardwire]

well wake up flash gives her an auto escape or block string, Her flash kick is godly fast and her low bombrange really dampers your wake ups
the matchup is in smoke favor but im just saying that he midrange pokes wont beat your so you need to get in and flash stops smoke bomb is she makes you conscious of it

boomaranges can be shaken

plus our wake ups are imune so how does her booms stop that?

 

[kandehbar]

boomaranges can be shaken

plus our wake ups are imune so how does her booms stop that?

I forgot shake works for low projectiles too. I need my coffee

 

[G4S KT]

Imo - Smokes whole game is centered around getting smoke bomb to connect.

I 100% disagree with this.

 

[kandehbar]

let me not say centered let me say his game cascades into smoke bomb, its a huge part of his game

 

[smokey]

I agree with you KT, it does no chip, and doesnt control the screen in any way as you can just jump or dash out of it. Doesnt even require an armoured special to blow through it like SZ or Noob or kitana whos projectiles play a much bigger part in their game. You very rarely get blind smokebombs to connect, and usually by the second or third jump/dash past your smoke bombs, they are in range for it to be unsafe to chuck another one, meaning all you gained was a tiny bit of meter and a guy up in your face!

 

[kandehbar]

well smoke bomb gains him great meter at long range it dont need to chip if your opponent its gonna stand there and block it then chuck them, and smoke does well everywhere i wouldnt mind a guy up in my face when i got a god like pokes, If you watch the atl redds smoke matches on screen pay attention to how he spaces with smoke bomb and how he uses his normals so he can pull of a smoke bomb.

Im telling you man Smoke bomb is smokes glue, its why hes so linear, cause everything is only for punishment or mind games, its all secondary offense, yeh he got great normals and stuff but what is the main target.......COMBO TO SMOKE BOMB
it is the most important tool smoke has and everything else that smoke has is just ways to make it easier to land smoke bomb.

 

[smokey]

how you describe it though you are saying its good in strings, which mean you need a hitconfirm, yeah his smokebomb might be the launcher in the strings allowing for you to juggle and combo, but it really isnt the glue that holds him together. What i think you mean is that the presence and threat of a smoke bomb rattles your opponents, and his great pokes and normals open them up. I get what you are saying though, and yeah comboing to smoke bomb is usually the plan, but its not the combo starter thats important in smokes case, because anything into smoke bomb will start it, and his juggle strings will too, but i think its the way you end your combos and the way you condition your opponents that makes him how he is. Your playstyle might center around smoke bomb, and it might be great for you, but i know mine doesnt. yeah i use it in my strings when i get an oppurtunity where its safe to do so and will pay off, but i cant use it as a basis to the whole character

 

[kandehbar]

how you describe it though you are saying its good in strings, which mean you need a hitconfirm, yeah his smokebomb might be the launcher in the strings allowing for you to juggle and combo, but it really isnt the glue that holds him together. What i think you mean is that the presence and threat of a smoke bomb rattles your opponents, and his great pokes and normals open them up. I get what you are saying though, and yeah comboing to smoke bomb is usually the plan, but its not the combo starter thats important in smokes case, because anything into smoke bomb will start it, and his juggle strings will too, but i think its the way you end your combos and the way you condition your opponents that makes him how he is. Your playstyle might center around smoke bomb, and it might be great for you, but i know mine doesnt. yeah i use it in my strings when i get an oppurtunity where its safe to do so and will pay off, but i cant use it as a basis to the whole character

.
well when you end your combos, whats the next thing your going to do.........TRY TO COMBO TO SMOKE BOMB.
When you playing footisies with your opponent what are you doing.........pressuing them so you can COMBO TO SMOKE BOMB.
when you runaway/keep away what are you chuckin.......smoke bomb.
Smoke Bomb is smokes glue and he NEEDS to use it at high levels.

all that stuff that we all do for pressure and crap is just (no pun intended) smoke and mirrors so that we can land smoke bomb. Think about it like this............If smokes projectile was a normal projectile, his game plan would be DRASTICALLY DIFFRENT to the point it could probably be a whole new character, i mean look at human and robo cyrax, safe teleport vs faster projecles make them pretty diffrent. If smoke bomb was like a regular projectile, smoke would probably have a low in one of his combos guaranteed.

 

[G4S KT]

.
well when you end your combos, whats the next thing your going to do.........TRY TO COMBO TO SMOKE BOMB.
When you playing footisies with your opponent what are you doing.........pressuing them so you can COMBO TO SMOKE BOMB.
when you runaway/keep away what are you chuckin.......smoke bomb.
Smoke Bomb is smokes glue and he NEEDS to use it at high levels.

all that stuff that we all do for pressure and crap is just (no pun intended) smoke and mirrors so that we can land smoke bomb. Think about it like this............If smokes projectile was a normal projectile, his game plan would be DRASTICALLY DIFFRENT to the point it could probably be a whole new character, i mean look at human and robo cyrax, safe teleport vs faster projecles make them pretty diffrent. If smoke bomb was like a regular projectile, smoke would probably have a low in one of his combos guaranteed.

Well, when you're pressuring someone looking for a combo opening what you're really doing is fishing for a big damage combo. Once a full combo is started smoke bomb just becomes part of the combo; whether it's in it or not is really here nor there.

All I'm saying is yea, smoke bomb is good, but it shouldn't be (read: can't be) a primary offense starter; you can only catch people sleeping or in a trap.

Once you've opened them up with a normal hit or AA, smoke bomb away.

 

[kandehbar]

Im not saying use it as a primary offense starter im saying that its important to smoke in general, his fighting style is based on that one move

which is why he is so linear

 

[Big Pampering]

smokes game

smoke is all about punishing and landing an overhead, smokes game is also pretty much about his grabs. smoke can beat people who try to d1 anti air, with a low jumpkick into airgrab. what ia havent seen smoke players do is his simple double d1 into smoke bomb, aris is the only guy ive seen that perfected this. mix in normal grabs and sometimes pressure people with sweep on wakeup.

his best string is really his b2 starter, fast nice range and results in an easy 32% that nobdy really drops.

against rush down characters: make them commit to a string.

A good example is JC, most of his string go on for a while if they committed to it, lets say his forward 3 , when he tries this you need him to whiff it and smoke towards behind him(ex version to be sure) and then throw a smoke bomb if youre a bit far if not b2 him.

rushdown characters make more mistakes, so u need to punish those.

zoning characters: u cant really zone smoke.

Smoke doesnt really have problems with anyone unless they are top tier, since a lot of top tier characters can either do rushdown or zone at the same time.

 

[kandehbar]

smoke is all about punishing and landing an overhead, smokes game is also pretty much about his grabs. smoke can beat people who try to d1 anti air, with a low jumpkick into airgrab. what ia havent seen smoke players do is his simple double d1 into smoke bomb, aris is the only guy ive seen that perfected this. mix in normal grabs and sometimes pressure people with sweep on wakeup.

his best string is really his b2 starter, fast nice range and results in an easy 32% that nobdy really drops.

against rush down characters: make them commit to a string.








A good example is JC, most of his string go on for a while if they committed to it, lets say his forward 3 , when he tries this you need him to whiff it and smoke towards behind him(ex version to be sure) and then throw a smoke bomb if youre a bit far if not b2 him.

rushdown characters make more mistakes, so u need to punish those.

zoning characters: u cant really zone smoke.

Smoke doesnt really have problems with anyone unless they are top tier, since a lot of top tier characters can either do rushdown or zone at the same time.

we all get that

Lets put it like this, if smoke didnt have smoke bomb and stayed the say other wise, he would be close to garbage...the only thing he would have going for him is that he can shake projectiles thats it.

 

[hardwire]

we all get that

Lets put it like this, if smoke didnt have smoke bomb and stayed the say other wise, he would be close to garbage...the only thing he would have going for him is that he can shake projectiles thats it.

um he can also shake normal attacks