New World Order X Podcast: Episode 1 - Consider the Crying‏ Part 1 and 2

[Eric The Scruffy]

God I'm not even 10 minutes into this thing and this podcast is nearly unbearable. Why the hell is Brady trying to draw analogies to his time with Sub-zero? That has nothing to do with Lex/Zod. If you dont think its a 9-1 then do a breakdown of why.

Ok, let me respond to this then.

I'm not the one who was saying this. Everyone else was telling me it's at least an 8-2 matchup, and I'm like "no, I just have to work harder". After I played @ARMOR I realized how the matchup truly works, and that I can't just work harder. My options in the matchup are virtually non-existent if the Zod player is on point. @Tom Brady said at the beginning of the podcast that he's not a Zod or a Lex expert, and that's where you should stop lol. The reason I was able to take a game off of Relaxed is because he fucked up. Zod can push me fullscreen with mb low laser, which I get jailed into with his trait. Zod can pop trait where I can't do anything because of his zod balls. His trait recovers by the time I can get back in by walking through his zoning. Relaxed missed a couple zod balls and I was able to capitalize on a couple bad decisions and was forced to do everything I can to take as much damage as I can before I get pushed back. The zod players agree with me, and the lex players agree with me, except for Dave and a couple people who don't play this game.

And you act like I don't understand matchup numbers and I'm overexaggerating because I have one really hard thing to deal with, but that's not true. I have a handful of 4-6's (e.g. superman and batgirl), a 3-7 (flash), a 2-8 (sinestro), and a 1-9 (zod). Sinestro is comparable to the matchups Tom's talking about with sub zero. I get heavily outclassed in every aspect of the match. The reason this matchup is different than zod is that I'm able to make a bunch of right reads and do damage, even though it's extremely hard to get these opportunities. I'm fucked by his zoning, I'm fucked by his footsie tools, he gets his trait completely for free which almost kills my trait game and any potential for getting in on him. But the difference between him and zod is that I have options. Granted, they're not the best options, but they're options. Realistically, when I didn't hit Relaxed at the beginning of the match I should've gone to restart, but I had to hold out hope that he might make mistakes or bad decisions. And even when those mistakes and decisions happened, it took so many right reads for me to be able to do that much damage where there were so many risks of being pushed back fullscreen with a single parry, push, or d12.

I don't cry about bad matchups. I'll complain about it sometimes, but I'm not going around asking for pity for Sinestro. I'm mad about a matchup that's broken. And I'm mad because I've run into this matchup at every major for the past year (Relaxed twice, Armor, and Pig). And I'm not even the one going around crying about it, other people are making posts about my match and you're just the one crying because you don't want people thinking your character is broken. I've played this matchup many, many times with RelaxedState. Our casual scores are roughly 20-1 where he'll quit because he's bored of winning. If we played 7 more games from that tournament to make it a ft10, I would tell people to bet money he'll win 7 of them. I don't downplay my character, I've been the biggest optimist for Lex in this community since day 1. You've just been the biggest downplayer of whatever your main is since day 1. I actually thought you were trolling on twitter earlier when you posted that but apparently not? I feel bad for people who have to play bad matchups, like Tom did in mk9, but this is a broken mechanic that doesn't allow me to do anything and you're the only one who can't see that because you're either willfully ignorant of how the matchup works or you just want to downplay for fun or some shit.

Quoting this for emphasis because anybody who actually spent the time to analyze the match at all should be able to understand this, and if they actually don't then I question their qualifications to actually do any sort of analysis.
The only reason you won a game at *all* (no offense meant) is because Relaxed State failed to execute. Matchup numbers by their nature don't account for human error.
Reo states at the begining of the podcast that to him a 9-1 is like if you get hit once and you're immediately trapped in an infinite. Well for all intents and purposes that's basically what's happening.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

You guys should keep it as The Unnamed Podcast because you all have names that could be real names, but aren't your real names.


Also I still want to be on an episode.

 

[coolwhip]

"Most people don't understand how bad an 8-2 match-up is." lol what? Who goes "Oh it's not that bad, it's just 8-2?" other than @GGA Jeremiah I mean...

Other than that, I always enjoy listening to these guys, even though I can never tell when two of the three people on the panel are serious or not. Their voices hold weight whether we like it or not.

That said, I want to comment on this Lex/Zod/Rev0lver thing. I feel like the overall narrative you guys are putting forth is valid. If you decide to be a character loyalist in a match-up heavy game, you know what you're in for. I agree. Rev0lver knows how bad the Zod match-up is and doesn't want to pick an alt. That's fine. He lives with the consequences. That, I can agree with.

What I don't agree with though, is the analogies. The Sub-Zero analogy for instance, is flawed on multiple levels. Lex IS a better character in Injustice than Sub Zero was in MK9, and I'm pretty sure Rev0lver knows that (I actually don't know where this idea that Rev0lver says Lex is a shitter comes from. If anything, he upplays him). Nobody's sympathizing with Rev0lver because he plays a bad character, as most don't even think he plays a bad character. Yeah, Sub-Zero had it worse across the board in MK9 for sure.

However, Sub-Zero had no match-up as bad as Lex/Zod (I can see Kenshi being a hard 8-2 but even then, at least there's something you can do). I'm not here to regulate Sub-Zero or Lex Luthor match-ups as I mained neither character but how is this not hard to see just by plain viewing? There's a reason the entire forum readily accepted Lex/Zod as a 9-1 match-up in Zod's favor. It's because it doesn't take a fighting game expert to understand what "I can't move or press a button" means. I'm actually surprised that three smart fighting game veterans think this match-up isn't as bad as everyone claims because Rev0lver was able to win a match in a first to 3 set. Since when are match-ups determined by one set?

More importantly, the only reason Rev0lver won that match was because Relaxedstate messed up his IAZB. It's no longer about making the right read or your opponent making the wrong read. Your opponent literally has to mess up inputs to have a chance. Yeah, REO's right, if Lex corners him, he can take away his entire life bar the way he can against most characters. But I'll gladly listen to the panel explain just how can Lex get him in the corner if the IAZB's are on point. The thing about this match-up is it's quite literally as simple as: IAZB's, laser, trait...rise, rinse, repeat. So if Tom says Kabal-Sub is 8-2, then this has to be worse, since at least Sub can dash block his way into cornering Kabal. I mean Tom mastered that match-up so well that he made it look not THAT bad even though it actually was. The problem for Rev0lver against Zod is he literally doesn't have that option. Like, if anyone wants to say it's not 9-1, by all means, but then offer advice about what he needs to do because theoretically, the answer is: nothing. I feel like the only reason some disagree it's 9-1 is just because 9-1 is too bad of a match-up to fathom. Yet, if you look at the match-up in theory, how is it not? If a tournament set determines that it's not 9-1 then we can use Tom's victory over Curbo to claim Sub-Zero/Kabal is not that bad.

I don't think anyone is trying to take credit from Relaxedstate either. He had a great performance at the tournament in general, but he was actually among the first people to talk about how bad this match-up is.

PS: The pre-patch thing is a terrible idea. Yeah, you'd have plenty of top tier characters but the game would lose all fun. Who the fuck wants to watch old F23 quasi infinites (exaggeration, I know), old dive kick/backdash, old Batman B23 machine gun on whiff + having bats at will, old Aquaman trait and low scoop, old metropolis rooftop, etc... in addition to everything in the game right now that many deem OP anyway. This is a really, truly awful idea. It's not just that there would be many great characters. The problem is the way these characters operated was not fun at all.

PPS: Good to hear you guys being reasonable about the 16 Bit/Pig ban. It really helps nobody, and it definitely doesn't help the scene.

 

[coolwhip]

You guys should keep it as The Unnamed Podcast because you all have names that could be real names, but aren't your real names.


Also I still want to be on an episode.

I think you should wait till they add P2w/PL as a host before making your appearance.

 

[coolwhip]

Ok, let me respond to this then.

I'm not the one who was saying this. Everyone else was telling me it's at least an 8-2 matchup, and I'm like "no, I just have to work harder". After I played @ARMOR I realized how the matchup truly works, and that I can't just work harder. My options in the matchup are virtually non-existent if the Zod player is on point. @Tom Brady said at the beginning of the podcast that he's not a Zod or a Lex expert, and that's where you should stop lol. The reason I was able to take a game off of Relaxed is because he fucked up. Zod can push me fullscreen with mb low laser, which I get jailed into with his trait. Zod can pop trait where I can't do anything because of his zod balls. His trait recovers by the time I can get back in by walking through his zoning. Relaxed missed a couple zod balls and I was able to capitalize on a couple bad decisions and was forced to do everything I can to take as much damage as I can before I get pushed back. The zod players agree with me, and the lex players agree with me, except for Dave and a couple people who don't play this game.

And you act like I don't understand matchup numbers and I'm overexaggerating because I have one really hard thing to deal with, but that's not true. I have a handful of 4-6's (e.g. superman and batgirl), a 3-7 (flash), a 2-8 (sinestro), and a 1-9 (zod). Sinestro is comparable to the matchups Tom's talking about with sub zero. I get heavily outclassed in every aspect of the match. The reason this matchup is different than zod is that I'm able to make a bunch of right reads and do damage, even though it's extremely hard to get these opportunities. I'm fucked by his zoning, I'm fucked by his footsie tools, he gets his trait completely for free which almost kills my trait game and any potential for getting in on him. But the difference between him and zod is that I have options. Granted, they're not the best options, but they're options. Realistically, when I didn't hit Relaxed at the beginning of the match I should've gone to restart, but I had to hold out hope that he might make mistakes or bad decisions. And even when those mistakes and decisions happened, it took so many right reads for me to be able to do that much damage where there were so many risks of being pushed back fullscreen with a single parry, push, or d12.

I don't cry about bad matchups. I'll complain about it sometimes, but I'm not going around asking for pity for Sinestro. I'm mad about a matchup that's broken. And I'm mad because I've run into this matchup at every major for the past year (Relaxed twice, Armor, and Pig). And I'm not even the one going around crying about it, other people are making posts about my match and you're just the one crying because you don't want people thinking your character is broken. I've played this matchup many, many times with RelaxedState. Our casual scores are roughly 20-1 where he'll quit because he's bored of winning. If we played 7 more games from that tournament to make it a ft10, I would tell people to bet money he'll win 7 of them. I don't downplay my character, I've been the biggest optimist for Lex in this community since day 1. You've just been the biggest downplayer of whatever your main is since day 1. I actually thought you were trolling on twitter earlier when you posted that but apparently not? I feel bad for people who have to play bad matchups, like Tom did in mk9, but this is a broken mechanic that doesn't allow me to do anything and you're the only one who can't see that because you're either willfully ignorant of how the matchup works or you just want to downplay for fun or some shit.

OK so I posted before reading this then I basically realized you said the same thing. But yeah, this.

 

[bettyswallaux]

Ok, let me respond to this then.

I'm not the one who was saying this. Everyone else was telling me it's at least an 8-2 matchup, and I'm like "no, I just have to work harder". After I played @ARMOR I realized how the matchup truly works, and that I can't just work harder. My options in the matchup are virtually non-existent if the Zod player is on point. @Tom Brady said at the beginning of the podcast that he's not a Zod or a Lex expert, and that's where you should stop lol. The reason I was able to take a game off of Relaxed is because he fucked up. Zod can push me fullscreen with mb low laser, which I get jailed into with his trait. Zod can pop trait where I can't do anything because of his zod balls. His trait recovers by the time I can get back in by walking through his zoning. Relaxed missed a couple zod balls and I was able to capitalize on a couple bad decisions and was forced to do everything I can to take as much damage as I can before I get pushed back. The zod players agree with me, and the lex players agree with me, except for Dave and a couple people who don't play this game.

And you act like I don't understand matchup numbers and I'm overexaggerating because I have one really hard thing to deal with, but that's not true. I have a handful of 4-6's (e.g. superman and batgirl), a 3-7 (flash), a 2-8 (sinestro), and a 1-9 (zod). Sinestro is comparable to the matchups Tom's talking about with sub zero. I get heavily outclassed in every aspect of the match. The reason this matchup is different than zod is that I'm able to make a bunch of right reads and do damage, even though it's extremely hard to get these opportunities. I'm fucked by his zoning, I'm fucked by his footsie tools, he gets his trait completely for free which almost kills my trait game and any potential for getting in on him. But the difference between him and zod is that I have options. Granted, they're not the best options, but they're options. Realistically, when I didn't hit Relaxed at the beginning of the match I should've gone to restart, but I had to hold out hope that he might make mistakes or bad decisions. And even when those mistakes and decisions happened, it took so many right reads for me to be able to do that much damage where there were so many risks of being pushed back fullscreen with a single parry, push, or d12.

I don't cry about bad matchups. I'll complain about it sometimes, but I'm not going around asking for pity for Sinestro. I'm mad about a matchup that's broken. And I'm mad because I've run into this matchup at every major for the past year (Relaxed twice, Armor, and Pig). And I'm not even the one going around crying about it, other people are making posts about my match and you're just the one crying because you don't want people thinking your character is broken. I've played this matchup many, many times with RelaxedState. Our casual scores are roughly 20-1 where he'll quit because he's bored of winning. If we played 7 more games from that tournament to make it a ft10, I would tell people to bet money he'll win 7 of them. I don't downplay my character, I've been the biggest optimist for Lex in this community since day 1. You've just been the biggest downplayer of whatever your main is since day 1. I actually thought you were trolling on twitter earlier when you posted that but apparently not? I feel bad for people who have to play bad matchups, like Tom did in mk9, but this is a broken mechanic that doesn't allow me to do anything and you're the only one who can't see that because you're either willfully ignorant of how the matchup works or you just want to downplay for fun or some shit.

Don't worry dude Dave's just being Dave most people are on your side here

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I think you should wait till they add P2w/PL as a host before making your appearance.

I don't like P2W for this podcast, but I feel like PL is a definite addition.

 

[coolwhip]

I don't like P2W for anything

Fixed.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I don't like P2W

Fixed.

Fixed.

 

[coolwhip]

Fixed.

I never stopped believing that a day would come where you and I are in full agreement <3

 

[Perfect Legend]

Lets Be Serious Here podcast was my idea. They went and did this one on their own.

 

[Lou Kang]

will we ever hear the end of how terrible sub zero is

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

will we ever hear the end of how terrible sub zero is

no

 

[Big Pampering]

"Most people don't understand how bad an 8-2 match-up is." lol what? Who goes "Oh it's not that bad, it's just 8-2?" other than @GGA Jeremiah I mean...

Other than that, I always enjoy listening to these guys, even though I can never tell when two of the three people on the panel are serious or not. Their voices hold weight whether we like it or not.

That said, I want to comment on this Lex/Zod/Rev0lver thing. I feel like the overall narrative you guys are putting forth is valid. If you decide to be a character loyalist in a match-up heavy game, you know what you're in for. I agree. Rev0lver knows how bad the Zod match-up is and doesn't want to pick an alt. That's fine. He lives with the consequences. That, I can agree with.

What I don't agree with though, is the analogies. The Sub-Zero analogy for instance, is flawed on multiple levels. Lex IS a better character in Injustice than Sub Zero was in MK9, and I'm pretty sure Rev0lver knows that (I actually don't know where this idea that Rev0lver says Lex is a shitter comes from. If anything, he upplays him). Nobody's sympathizing with Rev0lver because he plays a bad character, as most don't even think he plays a bad character. Yeah, Sub-Zero had it worse across the board in MK9 for sure.

However, Sub-Zero had no match-up as bad as Lex/Zod (I can see Kenshi being a hard 8-2 but even then, at least there's something you can do). I'm not here to regulate Sub-Zero or Lex Luthor match-ups as I mained neither character but how is this not hard to see just by plain viewing? There's a reason the entire forum readily accepted Lex/Zod as a 9-1 match-up in Zod's favor. It's because it doesn't take a fighting game expert to understand what "I can't move or press a button" means. I'm actually surprised that three smart fighting game veterans think this match-up isn't as bad as everyone claims because Rev0lver was able to win a match in a first to 3 set. Since when are match-ups determined by one set?

More importantly, the only reason Rev0lver won that match was because Relaxedstate messed up his IAZB. It's no longer about making the right read or your opponent making the wrong read. Your opponent literally has to mess up inputs to have a chance. Yeah, REO's right, if Lex corners him, he can take away his entire life bar the way he can against most characters. But I'll gladly listen to the panel explain just how can Lex get him in the corner if the IAZB's are on point. The thing about this match-up is it's quite literally as simple as: IAZB's, laser, trait...rise, rinse, repeat. So if Tom says Kabal-Sub is 8-2, then this has to be worse, since at least Sub can dash block his way into cornering Kabal. I mean Tom mastered that match-up so well that he made it look not THAT bad even though it actually was. The problem for Rev0lver against Zod is he literally doesn't have that option. Like, if anyone wants to say it's not 9-1, by all means, but then offer advice about what he needs to do because theoretically, the answer is: nothing. I feel like the only reason some disagree it's 9-1 is just because 9-1 is too bad of a match-up to fathom. Yet, if you look at the match-up in theory, how is it not? If a tournament set determines that it's not 9-1 then we can use Tom's victory over Curbo to claim Sub-Zero/Kabal is not that bad.

I don't think anyone is trying to take credit from Relaxedstate either. He had a great performance at the tournament in general, but he was actually among the first people to talk about how bad this match-up is.

PS: The pre-patch thing is a terrible idea. Yeah, you'd have plenty of top tier characters but the game would lose all fun. Who the fuck wants to watch old F23 quasi infinites (exaggeration, I know), old dive kick/backdash, old Batman B23 machine gun on whiff + having bats at will, old Aquaman trait and low scoop, old metropolis rooftop, etc... in addition to everything in the game right now that many deem OP anyway. This is a really, truly awful idea. It's not just that there would be many great characters. The problem is the way these characters operated was not fun at all.

PPS: Good to hear you guys being reasonable about the 16 Bit/Pig ban. It really helps nobody, and it definitely doesn't help the scene.

To be fair even if subzero cornered kenshi or kabal it wouldn't even be that bad for them.

 

[coolwhip]

will we ever hear the end of how terrible sub zero is

Lmao, I swear I knew you'd make an appearance. You are by far TYM's most underrated troll. Props.

 

[coolwhip]

To be fair even if subzero cornered kenshi or kabal it wouldn't even be that bad for them.

Kenshi I can agree. But Kabal struggles when he's cornered against Sub. I mean I guess he has ex dash but that's quite risky, though you do have to be careful about not doing the 212 ice clone set-up if he has meter and go for 214 instead.His wake-ups aren't great either so if Sub knocks him down in the corner he can get things going, because the 222 ice clone set-up works really well against him.

 

[Big Pampering]

Kenshi I can agree. But Kabal struggles when he's cornered against Sub. I mean I guess he has ex dash but that's quite risky, though you do have to be careful about not doing the 212 ice clone set-up if he has meter and go for 214 instead.His wake-ups aren't great either so if Sub knocks him down in the corner he can get things going, because the 222 ice clone set-up works really well against him.

Can't kabal do the flash parry and there would be no consequences if he made the wrong read?

Subzero just doesnt do enough damage imo and it still requires the subzero player to make a lot of reads against kabal. If the subzero player guesses right 2 times, the kabal player will have enough meter to break and get out of the corner. Also the kabal player should already have like two bars when he is finally cornered by subzero.

 

[GGA Max]

This podcasts didnt mention that if Zod is on point with his zoning, he can push lex back with EX low laser. I would wager that during the time his trait is recovering, he can iazb, and lex makes up like 1/3 of the screen. And when zod gets trait he'll push lex back full screen and start it over. He'd be doing specials and chip the whole time so he could possibly always have meter. So this could be an infinite loop of chip damage.

Zod needs meter to ex zod ball to safely call trait iirc, so he might need 2 bars every cycle of this.

I would bet he builds close to that, played perfectly, "at the highest level."

 

[Braindead]

Kenshi I can agree. But Kabal struggles when he's cornered against Sub. I mean I guess he has ex dash but that's quite risky, though you do have to be careful about not doing the 212 ice clone set-up if he has meter and go for 214 instead.

LIKE KABAL'S METER IS EVER EMPTY!

 

[Indecisive]

This podcasts didnt mention that if Zod is on point with his zoning, he can push lex back with EX low laser. I would wager that during the time his trait is recovering, he can iazb, and lex makes up like 1/3 of the screen. And when zod gets trait he'll push lex back full screen and start it over. He'd be doing specials and chip the whole time so he could possibly always have meter. So this could be an infinite loop of chip damage.

Zod needs meter to ex zod ball to safely call trait iirc, so he might need 2 bars every cycle of this.

I would bet he builds close to that, played perfectly, "at the highest level."

He gets a trait call from MB Laser and MB Zod Ball. Relaxed was building a lot of bar in the match against revolver.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Agreed on the Relaxedstate vs Rev0lcer situation.

Also front page pls @STORMS

 

[WakeUp DP]

Can we talk about the elephant in the room. Dlc characters.
Mk9
Kenshi
Pre patch skarlet
Freddy k
Injustice
Mmh
Batgirl
Zod
Pre patch scorp

All completely dominant. Well maybe not skarlet.

Don't get me wrong kabal cage sonya Arthur curry and Barry Allen are good too but do you see where I am going?

I understand they have to be good in order to look like an attractive purchase but I don't like this trend.

Maybe this can be discussed on one of the podcasts.

Cheers Dave, tom and reo

Exactly, its not "pick a top tier anymore" its learn the basics of the game and wait till a dlc char drops to main it!

 

[Tom Brady]

I think you guys are missing M2Dave's point..

First of all.. SZ vs Kenshi was 1-9. Cant zone, cant use corner game, cant use any specials, cant run away, cant pressure, do no damage, etc... I had no choice but to pick an alt because the mu was unwinnable. No one should be saying "SZ had no 1-9 mu's" because thats false. Blckula's Kenshi was unbeatable to my SZ, Pig's would have been even worse of a beating.


Now, onto the point..


Dave is saying that NO ONE cried for other players when they would miss the top 8 by losing 2-8/3-7 mu's. In certain cases getting 9th dispute losing a 2-8 mu when you were eliminated got you blasted as a shit player, an over rated scrub (even if you just placed top 8 at the last several majors). When you would talk about how bad the mu is you would get responses like "not my problem" or "shut up! pick a new character and stop crying". His point is that if several other players went on like Revolver is, they would be CRUSHED on forums and other podcasts. His point is just that no other player ever got the sympathy that Revolver is getting or that no one would be allowed to complain as much about a mu and get away with it.


As to the issue of "NOOOO ALL THESE BROKEN CHARACTERS".. I believe that some things should be adjusted but not to this extent. I also think characters like a Catwoman should have been then brought up to whatever level the top 12 characters were at. Less is never more.. addition by subtraction is still not really adding more. Again though... its easy to play things out in your mind at have it look good. Many times it comes out different when you see it applied in game. So while it may sounds like a good idea, it may not look as good as it sounds if it were done.

 

[Error404]

@rev0lver why even waste energy explaining yourself to someone who is less than irrelevent . M2Dave has not gotten top 8s , he has not discovered any zod tech and has spread unimaginable amounts of propaganda about DS and his low guns. Also people should remember that this is the same guy who got Scorpion nerfed because aparantly he broke the rules of the game , yet Zod not even letting several characters play the game is completely fine.

 

[Tom Brady]

If a tournament set determines that it's not 9-1 then we can use Tom's victory over Curbo to claim Sub-Zero/Kabal is not that bad.

In fairness, when you say that Relaxed didnt execute in that match which is why revolver won. Curbo had pad issues when we played which threw his execution off, making it easier for a SZ to play that mu. Dave's point isn't so much that the mu is not bad, its that Revolver is getting sympathy instead the usual roasting that many other top players have received.