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My last attempt at an accurate community tier list.

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I'm glad you brought this up actually. I believe this is a 5-5. Both characters have the tools to beat the other. Baraka's midscreen damage is not too much more than Noob's (20-25ish%) midscreen without a reset. I don't see how his D4 is worse, but maybe you can explain why you think so. Some of Noob's best footsie tools are B1, D4, D3, F3, up knee, and shadow charge. His meter building is underrated: After a blocked 212 up knee, he gains nearly half a bar (definitely over a 1/3), and his D4 jails in 212 up knee. After a 212 up knee, Noob has a legitimate 50/50 mix up where you have to guess right or he either (1) gets a combo, (2) gets another block string. resets the situation, and gains more meter. Also, I need to see more Baraka corner pressure, but I think both their corner pressure is phenomenal.

For the record, I consider both these guys underrated, and I would really like to play you some time if you are on PSN because I really need the match up experience and we can work out the match up itself, if you'd like.
Im only on live sorry. I consider the matchup 5-5 as well, maybe 4.5 in Noobs favor. What D4 comes down to is range. After seeing the data for many characters, most of their pokes are the same except for execution frames. The thing about Baraka's is it can be used and most characters can't blow it up. He also has his kickass sweep, which is +11 on block and is special cancelable. Good point about the 212 up knee, I had no idea that was +4 on block. The damage output isnt what gives Baraka an edge, it is the fact that he has a 100% reset where as Noob does not. I still consider Baraka slightly better because of his reset and his pokes/footsies.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
The problem I have with Reptile is it's hard to zone him and damn near impossible to pressure him. I'm started to understand the MU better but I do think it's a bad MU for Kenshi. At least 5.5-4.5 if not 6-4
Yeah, it can't possibly be more than a 6-4; though it's probably a 5-5 in all reality, just have to approach the MU differently I think. It is a weird MU for Kenshi though I'm sure.
 

BEENEEWEENEES

Thou shalt be slain!
As someone who has played the character since release, here are all of the things he lacks:

- A proper footsy tool
b1 all day baby

- Reliable armor outside of X-ray
exball armor tends to be reliable :confused: although armor choke would be sick

- Reasonable ways to use meter outside of breakers and X-ray
agreed until towards the end of a match, where exknife can do work for you in the chip/mixup department

- Reliable and damaging AA combos
try to start using 4 for AA, it's surprisingly effective

- Decent overhead attack
the overhead is more than decent imo since you can jail into knife/choke and because it OTGs off of his air throw.

- A non-moronic input for straight ball that doesn't mess up inputs or make using only said armor that Kano has become overly tedious and difficult to time properly.
sounds like a personal issue. as someone who has also played the character since release, this is hardly a problem anymore.

- Standing resets
- Damage resets
depends on what you mean by "resets." people throw around the term on this site to refer to things that are actually combos, like cyrax/smoke shenanigans. a true "reset" occurs after guessing wrong after being put at disadvantage to eat MORE damage, like after freddy's exclaw, scorpion's vortex, quan chi trance mix-ups, etc., and i think kano has some truly sneaky shit in exknife. b11 exknife leaves the opponent staggered where you can go in for a throw/low/overhead/whatever and does great damage on its own, a sort of ghetto reset. he also has reset opportunities after his air throw/exairball with his b2 OTG.

His only good matchup is maybe Sheeva and even that's iffy in my eyes.
not sure if that was sarcasm but wtf is sheeva gonna do against kano :confused: ball after you see her telestomp and she will _never_ hit you and ball also goes over unblockable foot. she has shitty options for punishing upball and a slow projectile that will easily get jump -> airball'd on reaction.

i think kano is a sorely misunderstood character. he has some very unique tools that make him stand out from the rest of the cast; airball is a SUPER good move when applied correctly with exairball being awesome for oki situations. upball is unsafe, but due to its tech crouching properties during recovery, it can be difficult to punish correctly by many characters whose fastest moves are all high.
his projectile starts up fast, travels fast, and has a very subtle start-up animation. kano players should be throwing knives from less than half-screen because they are NOT easy to react to and should be used to encourage your opponent to start jumping on you from upball range.
he has a fullscreen armored punishing tool that will literally punish just about anything anyone in the game throws at you (lest you be kitana or kabal) and regular ball will evade: scorpion hellfire, smoke bomb, rain lightning, cyrax bombs, freddy fingers, jax groundpound, kung lao low hat, nightwolf lightning and exlightning, kabal buzzsaw, and sheeva telestomp and unblockable stomp. a good kano should be able to react to most of these moves and punish accordingly.

i know kano has a bad reputation since most people view him as a has-been zoner who got nerf'd to shit and abandoned but i think he has some very neat tools that work well if applied correctly. he may not WIN many match-ups (though i think he beats quan chi, reptile, sheeva, noob, cyrax, jade, sindel, baraka, shang, and stryker) but he can go even with most of the cast. as far as the "top whatever" characters go, he most struggles against kenshi, freddy, kitana, and kabal, but imo he can go even with cage, sonya, kung lao, and jax.

all this shit being said, kano is still not a very good character. his -only- reliable footsy tool is b1 and upball is not safe. big hitbox, low overall damage output, and mediocre projectile recovery really hurt him, but i don't think many people have played enough solid kanos to shit on him so hard.


tldr kano ain't so bad, he just needs a hug.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
BEENEEWEENEES I like Kano, even now, however the inability to nail the EX horizontal ball with 100% accuracy drives me crazy. I have an easier time nailing a double QCF than that damn input. On a stick I think I can nail it about 30-40% of the time but I'm nowhere near happy with that low of a percentage; I honestly like complex inputs - I think they're fun, but that damn input is so strange to me.
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
i dont understand straight ball inability. i nail it 90% of the time and i barely play kano. my friend does play kano however and never has a problem with it. we are glorious stick master race of course.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
BEENEEWEENEES I like Kano, even now, however the inability to nail the EX horizontal ball with 100% accuracy drives me crazy. I have an easier time nailing a double QCF than that damn input. On a stick I think I can nail it about 30-40% of the time but I'm nowhere near happy with that low of a percentage; I honestly like complex inputs - I think they're fun, but that damn input is so strange to me.
analogs on the pad are perfect for it... i've never missed it once I started using the analog for his straight ball and his air ball. hahaha air ball.... airrrrrrrrrr balllllllll...... aiirrrrrrrrrrrr ballllllllllll
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
analogs on the pad are perfect for it... i've never missed it once I started using the analog for his straight ball and his air ball. hahaha air ball.... airrrrrrrrrr balllllllll...... aiirrrrrrrrrrrr ballllllllllll
Oh no, the input for the ball is easy peasy, but the input for the EX ball is fucked up lol. Try it out!
 

MaceWind

Crazy 88
try...
f d b R2 f

however you do it, you need to be hitting R2 and the last forward at NEARLY the same time, R2 a millisecond before your forward input.
It's still fairly stupid. I can't tell you how many times I've ran into an ice clone or a net because I tried to armor through it or god forbid I held block for two frames too long and ate a projectile. Mind you, I get it off fairly consistent but its all the difference between punishing a projectile or eating 30-75%. Sometimes, I won't use it when I see an opening and I have low life which is kinda sad. For a character that requires such strict timing, he sure does suck. Tell me you've ever had a problem armoring through something with Jax?
 

Flagg

Noob
Do people think Jade is still bad?

You know if you're Kano or even Lui Kang, Jade is a hard character to approach. If she gets a life lead against them, it's really hard for them to get back in.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Do people think Jade is still bad?

You know if you're Kano or even Lui Kang, Jade is a hard character to approach. If she gets a life lead against them, it's really hard for them to get back in.
I agree that Jade isn't bad like people said she was, she's probably right where she belongs now.

When it comes to Liu Kang, it's really not hard to get in on Jade, her zoning isn't that scary block or jump 1-2 rangs and you're in or Liu Kang has the option to ex dragon kick her as soon as he sees her pull out a rang on reaction and it won't be blocked because she doesn't recover quick enough. If she throws a low rang you could also dragon kick her without meter.


As for Kano, cannonball beats rangs on reaction, not even on read, on reaction to Jade winding up to throw a rang, he gets the knockdown and he's in too or he could simply block/duck/jump 1-2 of her rangs and he's in like Liu Kang.

She can lame you out with flash, but if she's not throwing rangs, she's not damaging you and you get in for free and if she does decide to throw rangs, Liu Kang and Kano have quite a few options to get in with minimal risk because of the slow start up and recovery of rangs.


I'm not downplaying Jade,I think she's solid with amazing range, these are only my observations from playing Jade in these match ups often.

She can certainly hold her own against Liu Kang and Kano.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
I'd switch LK with Scorpion, cool list. Just my opinion, I think Scorp is a lot better then that far down.

KL is and will always be top character as far as I'm concerned, anyone can use him in a days time.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
The damage output isnt what gives Baraka an edge, it is the fact that he has a 100% reset where as Noob does not. I still consider Baraka slightly better because of his reset and his pokes/footsies.
baraka doesnt have 100% resets,
even if u land the 50% reset, the opp is reset so low to the ground that everything bar a d1 is not hitting and even if the opp doesnt know this, they still have breaker from the 1st 50% combo u hit them with, baraka generally needs two full corner combos or three midscreen combos and some extra to kill
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
baraka doesnt have 100% resets,
even if u land the 50% reset, the opp is reset so low to the ground that everything bar a d1 is not hitting and even if the opp doesnt know this, they still have breaker from the 1st 50% combo u hit them with, baraka generally needs two full corner combos or three midscreen combos and some extra to kill
Im talking about the fact that F4 can be used anywhere and they will be reset.
 
EDITED:

the characters are listed in no particular order in their respective groups.

SS:
Kabal

S:
Kenshi, Sonya, Smoke, Freddy, JAX

A+:
Kitana, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage, Reptile, Cyrax, Raiden

A:
Shang Tsung, Sektor, Quan Chi, Skarlet, Ermac, Mileena, Rain, Liu Kang, Nightwolf

B:
Sub-Zero, Scorpion, CSZ, Sindel, Stryker, Noob Saibot

C:
Jade, Sheeva, Baraka, Kano