Logical Suggested Balance MK9

[Might Tested]

i also mentioned this when i was talking to Josh here...something i am considering. so far ur the third who suggested this idea...which proves that it's sensible. though, this will make IA EX DIVE KICK OP in my opinion...and this will be a complete different case.

hmmm.... i dont know. i am tired now to be honest from all the stress and tension on replying.

ty all for replying, i had a blast! shall continue later...not today!! mind cant comprehend anymore. keep on posting please, trust me this really help the research guys...it really does!! and it will affect and will make our words heard by higher authorities....trust me i am not kiddin...and yes we are being watched i swear (coming from a VERY reliable source)

so this thread is really working. thnx again


[MENTION=9392]TEST YOUR MIGHT[/MENTION]

haha "Angels will cry, black tier will be no more, and Tom Brady will completely rewrite the living guide."

i wanna see the guide cause tell now i never seen it, period!! Brady is really one of the very few i know who have a LOT of knowledge...so i wanna see his approach toward such a guide.

i shall continue on your reply later on. ty for posting.
though something to say for now. yes i am aware of the + and - frames on the strings.

though again, EX IA DIVE KICKS are really one of the fastets move in the game! doesnt mean it's not given its good shot so far...and it doesnt mean it's DEADLY in every situation! but when used correctly, i think it's VERY useful

but for now, i shall put this on the side

It is an extremely fast punisher, yes, but in 21 pressure, it defeats the purpose of conditioning.

 

[Alice]

ahh alice...what in the name of the lord are you talking about.....

ammmmm.....i am so confused now that i really cant find the right words to say.
but all i can tell u is, i am not gonna help u out by elaborating and explaining. i mentioned everything alrdy, so i am not gonna take ur hand and lead u to the steps.






are you aware of what you sayin in here? due to know the possibilities and probabilities?
in that case , what is easier....this nonsense up their or the IA EX dive kicks?

..... i dont know what to say to you to be honest, pleae excuse me and i apologise.


"The 1 frame you suggest to be added to it's recovery wouldn't make it any less usable, maybe stop people from using it reclessly, but really either way it wouldn't count. It's just 1 frame. i

In the other hand if an extra frame would be added to it's overall recovery it would take Csz-s mobility away, so your suggestion would be okay if in exchange Csz would get a useable teleport, since what he has now is shit."


so yay or nay? or u confused ....because i am if you are not :S


"However, he is not the troll of Mk9 with this tool.

Still if there are people think that Csz overpowered because of his divekicks and demand a nerf we need a tool in exchange to get in the same way we can do now
"

Please....dont say stuff that been actually NEVER mentioned. unless if u can find such words that i said, or other said that indicate that Csub is OP or broken.
beside that, watch your words and dont reply blindly just to be a part of the argument...simply, means nothing . sorry to be rude as well, but this is the way to approach an actual mature arguments

also, balancing nerfs and buffs, period doesnt mean the character is broken or OP or weak....etc.
just an FYI.


"You are with Kenshi right? So you know how easily you can contain him. Because for Kenshi it is easy as hell. And for many others.
Ex-dive won't stuff wakeups, and many-many other air moves have priority over it, like Kitana, Cyrax, and some others like Ermacs tele slam is just a joke."


again you dont know what your talking about...really

So you can contain kenshi easily? yes this matchup is 6 - 4...but, i am sorry....you cannot contain kenshi easily...not EVER if you fight against a good one.
and kenshi is hell easy too? really...hmmm, again what kenshi players you play against?
i dont think you know what your saying here or what is kenshi capable of....unless if have example, then shoot....beside that, dont be general cause really proves that bu dont know what your saying.

Also i fyou want a good backup....i happen to know a good friend who can back you up on this. lets bring him and let him judge about that.
@pigofthehut
based on the last Offline matches we had as well and this knowledge ofcourse toward Csub and Kenshi, as he's a very known good player....so lets so what your talking about.


Ex-dive won't stuff wakeups, and many-many other air moves have priority over it, like Kitana, Cyrax, and some others like Ermacs tele slam is just a joke."

who said wake up special? again show me where i said that please.

and many many other air moves has priority over it? i would LUV!!!! i would LUV!!! to see that...especially with the examples u mentioned....Kitana, cyrax,Ermacs.....show me the joke please alice


Shit...Csz will get no nerfs and no buffs. Nrs said that they will not change him anyway again. If he will be in Mk10 (hope he will be) it is something else, we will see about that.

i would agree in general....though i would say again, every char in the game requires a fix! and the game in general requires a fix!! deeply.
so before we cry about the characters, non of you guys mentioned the actual MAIN BASIC AND GENERAL FIXS that we actually need.

this is what we should focus on to be honest lol


in conclusion, i stand with the EX IA ex dive kick....i see that it either requires an 1 extra frame recovery, making it punishable on whiffing situations and stops the safe follow up or block. making it punishable after when used...which is VERY RELIABLE AND LOGICAL REASON.
if this is so not important to you guys (the EX IA DIVE KICK)...then really, why are you crying when i mentioned 1 extra frame recovery? u will only notice it for the IA ex dive kick in general...and wont affect him severely

or either arc restriction!! for Csub. air restriction is not severe like someone like SOnya! which she DOES NEED IT SEVERELY in my opinion especially in general any projectile in the game....though i can pass that as logic wise.

but that's my opinion! ....so ya. and again, i respect all and agree with all...this is simply a research. by means based on vote on my research on 1 v 1 meeting with people, or internet talk, matches...etc. i shall get the final outcomes.

how long will it take? please read the first post cause it will take atleast MONTHS!!

it's a part of the research and the consequences of tryin to understand and widen ones knowledge about the game


thank you for posting alice, and ty all for posting as well. looking for more replies

Yes, this string is just my beloved one, so don't take it seriously. Looks dope. There are many outcomes for sure, but with Csz i'm fond with corner play.
And well, this is a great way to add up dmg and carry too. What is questioned is the starting 33,ex-freeze u4, etc to actually hit, the corner part is maybe matchup based but I'm damn sure about that it is one of the best things Csz can do there. I just wrote this because even this situational little thing is more viable than the consistent dive kick pressure.

Yay or nay? Nay. Not because of the actual force it represents, but because of the mobility questions. If it would be +1 frames on hit or block but the same on whiff, I'm okay. I whiff a lots of divekicks, just to get around as I said. For me the overall +1 frame would be a problem.

Sure, I get that you never told that Csz is op, and this tool is only very strong and may have been more balanced, what I say that without this he would suffer a lot because of the quality of his teleports and he is a rushdown character. If you want to represent a rushdown character you need such tools.
I don't know if you get this but you may talk about one tech using his dive and ex dive, but I am talking about the general gameplay of Csz.


The Kenshi part: If you read it you may see that what I actually wrote that Kensi can contain Csz with ease. Yes, he can, and I see that you agree. It is a 6-4 favor of Kenshi I believe. He can keep Csz out godly.

Wakeups contain special wakeups ex-wakeups, any freakin wakeup. Please try to think in an actual match that is happening. If Csz players would be able to read minds it would prove your point. I agree with you in some points as I said, but we just cannot narrow down a tool for one situation.

Punisihng...well you can't expect your dive kick to be safe always. Do you mind if I talk about ex and normal together? So you can't expect always that it will be safe, it needs a careful aim and timing to make it safe and well your opp moves in the field. If blocked and hits above the belt it is easy to punish. With Ermac for example...
Yes, Cyraxs anti air will get Csz-s divekick. Kitanas flying (idk the name of the move) will beat divekick. Once again, what I am talking about are divekicks in general not in one situation, not only as a pressure tool. You cannot tell that it is unbeatable.

So as a conclusion just to clear it up, yes, it is a powerful tool indeed, and what I agree on: On block or on hit +1 frames but on whiff no change.
Or a better teleport for the +1 on whiffing, however now I can't tell how much it would change the mobility of Csz.
Still that +1 frame would not change the life of Csz players if not on whiff you get that. As a punishing tool and for actual damage okay, +1 frame, whatever.
But taking away the ability from Csz to navigate through the field as he can do it now is just not okay...non of us would tell shit if he wouldn't need it. But unfortunately he does. I'm playing Csz from day 1 been in about a millions of situations with my divekicks, tried to use them in million ways, using them in another hundred actually and I have to tell that he needs it. Sure I get that you point at one part, but if we talk about changing anything in a character shouldn't we look at the whole? Because in the whole picture Csz is relying on those moves strongly, mainly beacuse he has no other to get in against a few characters. And even with this tool look at a Kabal or a Kenshi matchup. He can get in only slowly from inch to inch, that is why the idea came up that he actually need an armor on his ex-divekick. And to some point I agree on that.
So you see, there are many point of view, I get yours, I get others, still I say that he should stay as he is.

P.s.: Thanks to this argument I got a few ideas. THank you much ^^

 

[Alice]

Give CSZ armor on EX freeze.

[MENTION=11]OJuggernautO[/MENTION], honestly, that seems like the most logical option, but considering it's impossible to tell exactly how much you are buffing a character unless it's super blatant, doing that can end up more harmful than helpful. It's actually much harder to balance by buffing based on one character than it is to balance by nerfing the issue and do tweaking elsewhere. Better to be safe than sorry, really.

May I share my point here please? Thank you.
Seems to be logical, yes. But it would be too much I believe.
My reasons:
In projectile trades you have the choice to use ex or normal iceballs.
The big difference here is that if you start an ex-freeze and you got hit by a projectile that does damage
for example scorpions spear the beam will disappear and will not hit. You lost the trade. But if you use normal
iceball you got hit, but Scorpion will freeze, and you get an opening, his spear will disappear.
If you use ex.freeze and you got hit by a projectile that will trap you like SZ-s iceball or Cyraxes net you will both
get locked down, the point is that you get out faster and you can go in for an attack.

So either way depending on matchup you can win a trade this way, just know when to use ex or normal. It'll solve it.
This far I experienced that against Kabals IaGb and Mileenas Air Sais you can win the trade too, however it is a close one, but you can.
Still I don't have frame datas in front of me of stagger states and recovery, but I'm nearly sure you can do that with normals.

Giving an armor to the ex-freeze would be practical in some cases, but in the other hand he would have an advantage
in his hands like nobody else, maybe Scorpion with his ex-spears. But it feels quite different for me, the spears can be jumped on reaction.
Will the armor starts instantly? Too much, a second parry. Starts later? Well, in some cases because of the disappearing beam
it would only make you lose a trade that you could win with a normal iceball.

Would be cool, but it's just a tiny bit too much against the fair play in many cases.


I'd prefer cancelable ex-slides. ^^ (yes i say it again)

 

[THTB]

Using it over parry in the situations you'd use parry would be pointless, because EX parry would do the same thing, minus the damage taken for armor. EX freeze is still a high attack.

The armor should definitely start during the end of the startup animation (when he sticks his chest out) to prevent the use of it for a GTFO move. Regular freeze, tbh tends to be way too slow and has a really small hitbox to try and trade with in a lot of scenarios. Yes, you can use it, but it's nowhere near as effective as, say Sub or Cyrax's freeze/net. It's only really viable on a pretty decent read.

I'm against EX divekick having armor because it presents the situation that you can't really do anything to CSZ but X-Ray him if he's in the air. 18% is a pretty significant chunk even for the cost (Shit adds up in the long run). I certainly don't want him to be able to have 1 bar of meter and be capable of jumping whenever because you can't even AA him anymore. That's my biggest problem with the buff. So what characters can punish it? I'm sure as hell not going to be using it to get in. I'm just taking advantage of the threat that's already there WITHOUT the armor. Every little bit of damage adds up, regardless of whether it seems like it does or doesn't. Shit would be dumb.

 

[Pagan]

I don't know why we talk about improving characters like CSZ when there are many characters below him. He gives a lot of characters bad matchups due to his dive kick and adding armor to it would make him impossible to keep out especially if they space it so they will land just in front of you. The main thing with him is making his bombs freeze 100% of the time and fixing his d3 bug from what I have seen of him.

Here's some suggestions for Scorpion and Jade. Sorry if already mentioned or something similar is on the list. My changes for Scorpion include bug fixes and assume the iaT would be taken out.

Scorpion
-d4 +12 on hit (standing)
-d3 -7 on block, +3 on hit (standing)
-Make 1 and 11 + on hit rather than 0 to prevent opponent from jumping out of pressure (they must successfully block first like Johnny Cage's f3 pressure)
-Make f3 a frame trap (Something like +3 to +6 on block)
-Increase Demon Fire/Hellfire damage by 2%
-Reduce startup of standing teleport by approximately 4 frames from the animation of Scorpion jumping back

Jade
-Make f2 hit crouching opponents
-12 hit confirm into overhead special
-Take out the increased damage from En Glow
-Reduce startup of all boomerangs by approximately 6 frames

 

[Alice]

Using it over parry in the situations you'd use parry would be pointless, because EX parry would do the same thing, minus the damage taken for armor. EX freeze is still a high attack.

The armor should definitely start during the end of the startup animation (when he sticks his chest out) to prevent the use of it for a GTFO move. Regular freeze, tbh tends to be way too slow and has a really small hitbox to try and trade with in a lot of scenarios. Yes, you can use it, but it's nowhere near as effective as, say Sub or Cyrax's freeze/net. It's only really viable on a pretty decent read.


I'm against EX divekick having armor because it presents the situation that you can't really do anything to CSZ but X-Ray him if he's in the air. 18% is a pretty significant chunk even for the cost (Shit adds up in the long run). I certainly don't want him to be able to have 1 bar of meter and be capable of jumping whenever because you can't even AA him anymore. That's my biggest problem with the buff. So what characters can punish it? I'm sure as hell not going to be using it to get in. I'm just taking advantage of the threat that's already there WITHOUT the armor. Every little bit of damage adds up, regardless of whether it seems like it does or doesn't. Shit would be dumb.

Well yes, you are right, still take a Kenshi for example. He has the attack when he send out a clone and hit you multiple times. Against this Csz-s armoured Ex-freeze would be pointless. Even if it hits one for armour the second will knock Csz out and make the beam disappear. Trade lost for Csz.
The same won't happen with Mileena nor Kabal, so yes, there it is viable. And in many other cases too, so I see the point, and I agree somewhat still feel like there must be another solution for this. We could: Either make his normal freeze startup faster, or make the ex freezes beam intact even if you got hit.
Both would help a lot, you have to eat a projectile during the trade, so with the armoured ex freeze you would eat one. You are just not knocked down.
But with roll and teleport you have time enough to get in from the ground.
Or make his teleports starting frames invincible like Cyraxes, so he could get away from faster projectiles and get in close. Still that would be too strong...shit Csz is fairly balanced and any little change could make him too strong or too weak. I understand why NRS said that they will not change anything about him in the future. He is good as he is now, and that Ex-freeze would not change too much in his favor only make some tight spots somewhat better. So at the end I can agree somewhat. Too bad overally it wouldn't be useful against people who know what's up.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Jax has 17% armoured move, so why cant CSZ have his 18% move armoured? He has no answer at all to even Kitana fan spam, and her projectiles are relatively easy to get around for most of the cast.

Loads of characters have a move where the threat is as useful as the move itself, CSZ doesnt have one of his own.

AA'ing him already is a guess. Theres only a few moves I know of that can AA his divekicks.

Giving him armour wont make him broken or too good in anyway, his offense is relatively average as it is and nearly all of his specials suck as they are.

 

[CD jr]

Teef and check as much as I love you guys I dissagree with 95% of everything you have wrote in this thread

 

[rev0lver]

This game has been patched enough. Other than resets if anything has to be changed it must be very, very minor. I really don't see a need for any of this at least for a long time.

 

[DanCock]

I didn't even know about this thread will have to read it later tonight


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk

 

[xxteefxx]

alright....looks like i got an update coming soon here. this time i have stuff recorded

basically focusing on these following bugs + some character specifics:

1- Ermac auto correct x ray bug
2-NW losing pose bug
3- invisibility with each char in the game bug / and codes bug
4- Xray trade bug and game freeze
5- Game freeze bug in stages and making camera move by itself
6- Jade breaker bug and small game freeze bug
7- IN depth input bug explanation (yes i have a sure answer and reason)
8- jump in punch bug series (cant block)

1- Talks about whiff collision issue
2- Talks about hurtbox properties
3- talks about cr+1 issue and diffrence between small, medium, large and X large chars
4- Extra frame on side changes leading to extra frame inputs and input bug

-Some char specifics and important notes:
1- Cyblax Properties and advantages over regular cyrax
2- C-sub EX instant dive kick stuffing properties
3- Kenshi + advantage armors and safe armors
4- Sindels offensive technique
5- Skarlet traps in full explanation (thnx to @check) and how to escape them

-and other miscs like Option select, wake up FORCED side change and many more.


the list will be updated soon...and i will be rdy for more fights.
sorry i didnt respond to a LOT of posts here...i've been really busy with work and tryin to make money. also, this will be my last project as well as the Kenshi act.2 and possibly the evo vid.
it seems that i will quite MK9 after REV X and possibly final round will be my last as a casual guest....due to the reason to graduate from school and continue my game design degree and masters

wish me luck plz , i really need it lol