General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn needs BUFFS

[Under_The_Mayo]

I think hes fine, once again you have a damage buff and a sunbeam that gives you life back as well as hurts the other character. its easy to get either one out as long as you're not trying to just rush someone down with it.

J360 still rocking my CyberSub graphic. Thanks for the smile today.

 

[Ugodimak]

Please tell me this isn't a serious thread and just a Kitana parody...

 

[NYCj360]

Both of these abilities can be full punish from fullscreen on reaction by much of the cast unless you are throwing them out at the end of a combo, only you could just add more damage on at the end which as it's guaranteed and often higher anyway is far more useful. For now it's a lot easier cause people don't realise that you have so much recover time. But wait there's more, if you are throwing it at the end of a combo you are loosing out on any and all oki pressure to boot. The buff should be 10-20 frames faster and the beam should be 20-40 frames faster (you can't spam it anyway).

One of the many reasons War God is good is he doesn't need to care about these abilities.

Remember it's also a buff, there is no reason why it should come easy or guaranteed in a combo while still granting you freedom. And the buffs are on all 3 variations.

 

[regulas]

Remember it's also a buff, there is no reason why it should come easy or guaranteed in a combo while still granting you freedom. And the buffs are on all 3 variations.

40 -50 Frames would still be too slow to use in combo's and still punishable but not quite as horrendously as it is now. Furthermore this is a self damaging buff which are well known to be weak competitively.

And Ray, given that it cannot be spammed I really don't get why it's that slow. Again 40 frames would make it too slow to be abusable while at least making it a viable choice. Ray also has further problem that it's damage/healing isn't actually that good because you can't keep people easily in the spot, this is only a problem because of how hard it is to get our.

Remember unlike projectiles these abilities are not causing any kind of hitstun/blockstun, which is why their oft slow speed works.

 

[kabelfritz]

member since wednesday

 

[Zoidberg747]

At this point TYM wants buffs for like half the cast.

Nothing could possibly go wrong with that....

 

[NYCj360]

40 -50 Frames would still be too slow to use in combo's and still punishable but not quite as horrendously as it is now. Furthermore this is a self damaging buff which are well known to be weak competitively.

And Ray, given that it cannot be spammed I really don't get why it's that slow. Again 40 frames would make it too slow to be absuable while at least making it a viable choice.

Remember unlike projectiles these abilities are not causing any kind of hitstun/blockstun, which is why their oft slow speed works.

Like i said there are many situations where you can get it out.

Do you have examples of anyone outside of teleport characters that can blow it up full screen off of a knock down setup?

I'm asking because i'm doing a few setups right now that work even on teleporters.

 

[LeeVanDam]

The only thing I would want buffed is the priority of his Air Takedown. If you spend meter on an anti air, it shouldn't trade as often as it does. Outside of that, I think he's fine. Everything has a use, even if it is extremely situational.

 

[regulas]

Like i said there are many situations where you can get it out.

Do you have examples of anyone outside of teleport characters that can blow it up full screen off of a knock down setup?

I'm asking because i'm doing a few setups right now that work even on teleporters.

The point is that you would never want to use them on a knock-down set-up. (Except maybe vs grandmaster sub if you're stuck in the corner). You would much rather deal more guaranteed (6-10%) damage followed by oki pressure then use a sun beam that might net you 4% if you're lucky and leaves you at neutral or worse.

When I say full screen punish I mean that you cannot ever use them outside of set-ups because anyone can litterally run-combo in response.

EDIT: as an added example, for pro players most Kotal streams I've watched the moves are rarely ever used and rarely add anything significant when they are.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Having trouble with Kotal?

Jason Vorheers is THE character for you!

Get him today, with the kombat pack!

 

[NYCj360]

The point is that you would never want to use them on a knock-down set-up. (Except maybe vs grandmaster sub if you're stuck in the corner). You would much rather deal more guaranteed (6-10%) damage followed by oki pressure then use a sun beam that might net you 4% if you're lucky and leaves you at neutral or worse.

When I say full screen punish I mean that you cannot ever use them outside of set-ups because anyone can litterally run-combo in response.

Oh ok then that means they are working as intended.

 

[NYCj360]

What's the basic damage on a kotal bnb guys?

 

[DannyBoyPERU]

Both of these abilities can be full punish from fullscreen on reaction by much of the cast unless you are throwing them out at the end of a combo, only you could just add more damage on at the end which as it's guaranteed and often higher anyway is far more useful. For now it's a lot easier cause people don't realise that you have so much recover time. But wait there's more, if you are throwing it at the end of a combo you are loosing out on any and all oki pressure to boot. The buff should be 10-20 frames faster and the beam should be 20-40 frames faster (you can't spam it anyway).

One of the many reasons War God is good is he doesn't need to care about these abilities.

It should be at least 36 frames recovery like the totems

 

[Tom Brady]

No it works perfectly fine. And yea he does. I didn't say it needs to be safe but if u knock him down (especially in the corner) its like game over for him. Just something that knocks the opponents away. He gets zoned out bad so if you're far away from kotal its in the opponents favor at that point

The biggest problem players here have is they do not know how to get off the ground without the "wake up" attack. I fail to see how getting up and blocking = game over. Keep in mind that the opponent has to know how you are getting up as you have options to throw off their timing of when to attack.

 

[regulas]

Oh ok then that means they are working as intended.

So it's intended that they be completely unused by anyone?!?! Just remove them from the game if your going to make them useless by design.

Have I not made it clear, these abilities HAVE NO REASON TO BE USED.

What's the basic damage on a kotal bnb guys?

30-40%, up to 50% with crystal. This ignoring the practicality of landing them though. War god gets the easiest to land but does the least damage. Blood God can deal really good dmg but has limited ways to actually land it.

 

[Dirtylova]

no you need buffs

/thread

 

[NYCj360]

So it's intended that they be completely unused by anyone?!?! Just remove them from the game if your going to make them useless by design.

Have I not made it clear, these abilities HAVE NO REASON TO BE USED.


30-40%, up to 50% with crystal.

You've stated that you have no reason to use them, they are not useless, others seem to be using it just fine.

 

[regulas]

f

No they aren't. All pro players are using War God and avoid using these abilities save as a random "you didn't expect it" gimmik. The only case where anyone of them has actually used Sun Beam as a tactic is versus grandmaster sub because that variation leaves you semi-alone for long periods of time in the corner so to speak.

 

[NYCj360]

No they aren't. All pro players are using War God and avoid using these abilities save as a random "you didn't expect it" gimmik. The only case where anyone of them has actually used Sun Beam as a tactic is versus grandmaster sub because that variation leaves you semi-alone for long periods of time in the corner so to speak.

That's also because the game is 2-3 weeks old and people are still uncomfortable with movement and spacing. There are no established pro players as of right now either.

 

[John Grizzly]

What's the basic damage on a kotal bnb guys?

In the only variation truly worth putting time into (War God), he gets around 30 midscreen with no meter and around 40 with meter. All of which are pretty easy (unless you're online).

Kotal is fine right now. He has some really good tools. He was the character that intrigued me most so I've finally decided to just put some time into him. It's too early to call for buffs or nerfs. I feel like people are registering on TYM just to post that their character is ass and ask for buffs.

 

[ColdSpine]

Its about discussions nd opinions.

making sun beam faster for the sun god variation exclusively would encourage some people to use it since it complements the overall style of that particular variation.

Faster sun beam, command throw and soul scorch will give u access to almost constant healing and meter refill everytime u maximize lvl 3 sun choke. Which i believe is the idea behind this variation.

Its my opinion, or at least what i wish for.

 

[imblackjames]

The biggest problem players here have is they do not know how to get off the ground without the "wake up" attack. I fail to see how getting up and blocking = game over. Keep in mind that the opponent has to know how you are getting up as you have options to throw off their timing of when to attack.

I realize that but it still gives the agressor free pressure without repurcussions. They can do a full string thats safe on block and even if i stay on the ground eventually i have to get up and just block until im forced to guess the mix up. The wake up would make u worried to press buttons on my wake up Kind of like what everyone has

 

[Second Saint]

While I'd like a faster sun beam so that it can be used in corner setups, I don't think that's a necessary thing. The calls for buffs also seem to be a side effect of having variations. When people see one variation for their character is good, they want all the variations to be similarly useful, and that's just not the case in most situations.

For the most part, I'm of the opinion we should wait and see, though this hasn't stopped me from having pipe dreams on occasion. There's really only one thing I can say with certainty. Mace Parry needs to be nerfed. There's no reason for the damage buff to stack the way it does, and I feel that, because of the massive damage this can create, it holds back any discussion of how Blood/Sun play. There will always be someone that points to Kotal saying "but...121% combos" as if those are a thing outside of combo videos. Hell, I'm not even sure if the parry is working as intended or the stacking was just an oversight.

 

[KeyserSoze]

While I'd like a faster sun beam so that it can be used in corner setups, I don't think that's a necessary thing. The calls for buffs also seem to be a side effect of having variations. When people see one variation for their character is good, they want all the variations to be similarly useful, and that's just not the case in most situations.

For the most part, I'm of the opinion we should wait and see, though this hasn't stopped me from having pipe dreams on occasion. There's really only one thing I can say with certainty. Mace Parry needs to be nerfed. There's no reason for the damage buff to stack the way it does, and I feel that, because of the massive damage this can create, it holds back any discussion of how Blood/Sun play. There will always be someone that points to Kotal saying "but...121% combos" as if those are a thing outside of combo videos. Hell, I'm not even sure if the parry is working as intended or the stacking was just an oversight.

But, anyone proclaiming the bolded is simply not a thoughtful, experienced fighting game player (i.e. As you point out, those combos just don't happen outside of combo videos). The irrational concern over inordinately situational and decidedly impractical damage buffs should be given very little weight when assessing the overall competitive viability of either Sun God or Blood God.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Overall, I think Kotal is fine as is. As I have written several times on this board already, I would LOVE to see God Ray/Sun Ray sped up in some fashion. But, I personally don't consider it essential.