Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Ram]

For instance, Johnny can freaking zone out Kotal and the trade isn't all that good if we're just focusing on the KB from the discus toss. Jade completely shuts him down fullscreen and in return she has immunity which allows her even more safety from fullscreen thus nullifying his KB. If anything, we need to be focusing on using DB4 at it's max range in order to check people and make them honest while on the ground after a 50/50.

Parry could be faster but with the way it's being used, the parry start-up frames should be perfectly fine for what it is right now. I assume we're all using it for pressure and making the unsafe strings not too unsafe.

They could make F2 faster.... Not asking for a 7F mid but at least give me some wiggle room when going up against Jax, Jacqui, Collector, Geras, and Liu Kang. Also, make B2 consistent for it's hitbox. I shouldn't have to worry about it completely whiffing B2 at max range when I'm doing a combo like jeez.

When jade goes for projectile immunity, I immediately go for sun or amplified sun

 

[Strike80]

Yeah I played some more games tonight and I did do a little better when I was more focused on my spacing but I still feel like he has some general problems.

Like command grab shouldn't side switch, if we work to get our opponent in the corner should we really have to choose between throwing them out of it or max damage? Also maybe make it not throw them away as far?

Also disc throw could use a slightly (SLIGHTLY) faster start up. I have been getting absolutely blasted when it comes to the zoning so if that came out a bit faster OR if parry came out a bit faster it could help him survive those fights a little better IMO.

Again I don't or want him to be buffed to top 5/top 10, just some small QOL things.

Many of his tools are slightly too slow.
Right now he gets interrupted far too often and when he finally forces enemy to block or hits enemy rewards are too small to compensate.

 

[ColdSpine]

i never thought i was gonna say this, but kotal might turn out to be the worst character in the game so far, his f2 needs to be faster and he needs a good mid to play with at neutral range. Also, his b22 needs to be safe since its starts with a high meaning it can be ducked and launched.

i struggled so much playing against zoners its ridiculous and when i get in i literally have nothing to keep my pressure going.

he is the most appealing character visually but goddamn he needs some serious buffs or rework.

 

[Strike80]

i never thought i was gonna say this, but kotal might turn out to be the worst character in the game so far, his f2 needs to be faster and he needs a good mid to play with at neutral range. Also, his b22 needs to be safe since its starts with a high meaning it can be ducked and launched.

i struggled so much playing against zoners its ridiculous and when i get in i literally have nothing to keep my pressure going.

he is the most appealing character visually but goddamn he needs some serious buffs or rework.

Kotal Struggles to get in against zoners and when he finally gets in his melee is not stronger than theirs.

 

[Skylight1]

He doesn't zone you out. Throwing a projectile that's faster than yours does not mean zone you out.

Characters with air and ground projectiles zone you out. Not a random 18f high projectile. The trade is pretty good because your projectile knocks him down, his doesn't. You can wavedash 2-3 times as he's getting up and you may get a KB.

Sword quake is a complete gimmick at 41 frames. People will adjust to it, you can use it if you want free online wins for now, but it's just going to make you form bad habits, it's not worth using more than once every few games or when you've already lost the round.

F2 does not need to be faster. It reaches further than jump distance and converts into 330 damage while anti airing at the same time. You're not supposed to throw the move out willy nilly. If you have a problem against characters, grind the matchup for a few days, don't just ask for buffs just because you're losing on week 1.

You don't have to go 5-5 or beat every char on the roster, not that we would know anything like that this early into the game.

I wouldn't throw out his F2 but let us be honest in a game where mids are king, Kotal's is nice but it's too slow. And no good Kotal is going to throw it out willy nilly so yeah.

When jade goes for projectile immunity, I immediately go for sun or amplified sun

Yeah this seems to be the best one.

 

[Qwark28]

I wouldn't throw out his F2 but let us be honest in a game where mids are king, Kotal's is nice but it's too slow. And no good Kotal is going to throw it out willy nilly so yeah.



Yeah this seems to be the best one.

You have a 14+15f mid so up to you if you punish people or let them do whatever.

 

[KingJerm731]

Guys what anti air are using for close jumps? does s1 even work?

S1xxDf2 F122xxDb2 is what I use.

 

[Evil Canadian]

I think a big problem with Kotal is his stuff is anti-synergistic for the tourney variations.

God ray is straight up not as good as the base sunlight. You can't set it on yourself with godray. He struggles to burn bar to sending it on to the enemy for a bar isn't a big deal.(not to many any version of sun is too slow anyways) Like in the corner with god ray you can't set the sun up on you on your enemy and yourself, but easily can with the base one.

If you got command grab you always side switch which is annoying.

If you pick the other variation you basically can't do combos unless you wanna risk your life with back 2 which is a slow high.


But if there was just a variation like, kahn cut/command grab/cat, that in itself would solve a lot of his problems. Or kahn cut/cat/totem.

Or basically long story short why on earth isn't kahn cut a base move.

 

[Zeugirdor]

Sonicfox said he could be one of the best characters if you know how to wave dash with him. But, i just want to know why khan cut isnt a base move its stupid we should also have at least one totem for one of the variations also. im still practicing with him but so far i feel a bit lower then most characters.

 

[Evil Canadian]

Sonicfox said he could be one of the best characters if you know how to wave dash with him. But, i just want to know why khan cut isnt a base move its stupid we should also have at least one totem for one of the variations also. im still practicing with him but so far i feel a bit lower then most characters.

Who cares about wavedashing with Kotal though. Maybe jax or something, but Kotal has f24 "getting in" with wavedash is exactly not the point with the character. Its another case of sonic fox while being one of the best players of all time, has poor judgement calls when it comes to character strengths. See also: "Starfire is awful" and "SSJ vegeta is one of the worst characters in the game".

 

[Qwark28]

Who cares about wavedashing with Kotal though. Maybe jax or something, but Kotal has f24 "getting in" with wavedash is exactly not the point with the character. Its another case of sonic fox while being one of the best players of all time, has poor judgement calls when it comes to character strengths. See also: "Starfire is awful" and "SSJ vegeta is one of the worst characters in the game".

Wavedashing is one of kotal strongest options and helps him so much better as a character, it opens up pressure and oki routes and takes whiff punishing to the next level . You're severely underestimating it.

 

[Evil Canadian]

Wavedashing is one of kotal strongest options and helps him so much better as a character, it opens up pressure and oki routes and takes whiff punishing to the next level . You're severely underestimating it.

I am really not, people are massively overestimating it. It has its uses for certain characters, and I don't believe Kotal to be one of them. Kotal has no pressure other than just hitting buttons on your wakeup which he doesn't need anything extra to help with. Kotal also has no need for help for whiff punishing. If you were Multiple dashes away you ain't getting nothing.

 

[ColdSpine]

kotal needs a fast mid to help him in the poking war

 

[Evil Canadian]

kotal needs a fast mid to help him in the poking war

Well that isn't coming anytime soon, so for now settle for down 4. Its basically safe and its +15 on hit and effectively jails into f24 midscreen(in the sense they can't hit buttons that can win out).

 

[Zeugirdor]

Do you guys mix it up on block with DB4ex? i find myself doing that alot when applying pressure even though they can low poke they dont suspect it.

 

[Ram]

Do you guys mix it up on block with DB4ex? i find myself doing that alot when applying pressure even though they can low poke they dont suspect it.

yup

 

[Saviorself]

I am really not, people are massively overestimating it. It has its uses for certain characters, and I don't believe Kotal to be one of them. Kotal has no pressure other than just hitting buttons on your wakeup which he doesn't need anything extra to help with. Kotal also has no need for help for whiff punishing. If you were Multiple dashes away you ain't getting nothing.

wavedashing is definitely unexplored but kotal does not want to be up close anyways, he want midrange, he gets destroyed up close by majority of the cast....now if could wavedash backwards/KBD that would be a different story

 

[Zeugirdor]

How do you wave dash is it just dash block?

 

[Qwark28]

I am really not, people are massively overestimating it. It has its uses for certain characters, and I don't believe Kotal to be one of them. Kotal has no pressure other than just hitting buttons on your wakeup which he doesn't need anything extra to help with. Kotal also has no need for help for whiff punishing. If you were Multiple dashes away you ain't getting nothing.

Either you're downplaying so hard you fooled your own self or you're wildly disconnected from the basic notions of footsies.

Wavedashing, objectively, gives you oki from things that would leave you out of range or give you very few options, namely F34 and normal sun choke.

Moving at nearly 3 times the normal dash speed makes footsies and whiff punishing a lot stronger. I regularly wavedash after ex command grab to put myself at F2 range, where I force whiffs and punish them, or in neutral, after projectiles, etc.

Wavedashing at someone with the fastest dash in the game inherently forces the opponent to deal with it in some way, and you can take advantage of that. Footsies 101, don't know why I have to explain these things on this site 8 years later. It amplifies every aspect of your movement by proxy.

IDK what your goal is, you've been complaining and ignoring things the char has since day 1, if your goal is to have fun in a game either lose that mindset or switch characters, don't know what else to tell you.

 

[Evil Canadian]

Either you're downplaying so hard you fooled your own self or you're wildly disconnected from the basic notions of footsies.

Naw, I just actually know what I am talking about. You got too much theorycraft in the brain. I have already blown up a lot of people wavedash crazy because the more you wave dash the less control you have over yourself in neutral when it comes to being smacked by buttons. Its good for some characters to get in, on characters that actually want to get in. For someone like Kotal "getting in" means you don't know how to play the character and are actively sabotaging yourself.

You don't need wave dashing to get oki off ex grab, you can microstep into dash and still be in range of f2. In fact in the mirror its the only way to avoid being f2'ed back in the face if they expect it because wave dashing takes up too much time and you will lose the trade.

I know exactly what the character has, which is why I won't be playing him anymore until he's patched. He's fundamentally flawed in just about every way other than f2 has nice range.

 

[Qwark28]

Naw, I just actually know what I am talking about. You got too much theorycraft in the brain. I have already blown up a lot of people wavedash crazy because the more you wave dash the less control you have over yourself in neutral when it comes to being smacked by buttons. Its good for some characters to get in, on characters that actually want to get in. For someone like Kotal "getting in" means you don't know how to play the character and are actively sabotaging yourself.

You don't need wave dashing to get oki off ex grab, you can microstep into dash and still be in range of f2. In fact in the mirror its the only way to avoid being f2'ed back in the face if they expect it because wave dashing takes up too much time and you will lose the trade.

I know exactly what the character has, which is why I won't be playing him anymore until he's patched. He's fundamentally flawed in just about every way other than f2 has nice range.

The competition I play against and where my experience with the character comes from is vs N1kolass ( multiple mkx top 8, top 16s, 32s, won a major in IGAU1 ), Nivek ( multiple top 8, grandfinal showings in every nrs game + tekken/sf ) and Metzos, who is a good player. My experience is vs some of the best EU players.

But you can keep saying I'm theorycrafting while ignoring the things your character gets from this rapid movement mechanic, ignoring my points and replying to what you specifically want to reply to or be condescending about. Whatever floats your boat. I'm not saying kotal doesn't have some serious faults, but let's not turn discussions into echo chambers for cognitive dissonance by pretending that the things he does actually get are garbage.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Do you guys mix it up on block with DB4ex? i find myself doing that alot when applying pressure even though they can low poke they dont suspect it.

No I don't because it's reactible. The animation of the sword going up before it slams down is 100% reactible for full combo. It doesn't matter if you do F2 xx DB4, F24 xx DB4 or try to condition them by stopping at F24 all the time then randomly throwing out DB4 linked on the first or any hit if any string. On block it's reactible.

So you probably shouldn't do that. Maybe online against people who don't lab up matchups but competitively that will get you blown up hard.

After labbing him since day one and many sets vs several characters I am convinced DB4(Sword Pound) and Sunlight are useless against opponents who know the matchup.
Sunlight is semi safe off combo into 34 xx Sunlight
But it's still punishable by Errons F32, Raidens F2/F4, SubZero everything, Scorpion can't count everything has range in his Toolset, shall I go on?

This is frustrating, Kotal is my favorite of the cast. He appeals to me the most but is arguably the worst because of these flaws. With those two things fixed he could set with the best cuz he has good range and is solid if your footsie is on point. He clearly suffers against zoning and up close so if is Sunlight and Sword Pound recovery is reduced he could deal with zoning and have better options to avoid close up. As it stands his everything puts him point blank up close on block and the range he is at after F24/F12 is to far for his starters 12 and 22 since the first hits wiff. So he is in a place he doesn't have tools to deal with. Look at top 10, they have many fast buttons, 9f mids and exceptionally good pokes and footsie tools as well as mix and plus on block options.
Kotal has none of these but does have some mix but it's incredibly slow and flawless blockable. He does have long range.

I don't think he needs fast mids or anything crazy just for his two specials I mentioned above to be useable against players who know the matchup. The sunlight doesn't need to be safe enough on ground but at least from F12 xx Kahn-cut F12 xx Tonatiuh Beam (Sunlight).

 

[AK Harold]

So I've been playing kotal quite a bit and am growing to enjoy his kit. Disclaimer I use blood totem. So far it feels like he requires a bit more match up knowledge because he has very specific tools. I will try to explain.

First off, variation. No I don't think it's definitely the best by any measure, but it has merit. I understand the damage numbers and I do like his throw. But I'm obsessed with blood totem. Also, I am more concerned with figuring out what match ups are affected by the variation right now to future proof myself.

Panther dash can be amp to projectile immune. It is only a good reaction vs a very limited amount of tools. Overall not that great. It's a go-to damage ender for combos if you don't want to amp or want to reset to a jump distance.

Air panther let's you punish on reaction several moves and projectiles. It is a large boon vs some matchups. Allows more options on neutral jump.

Blood totem. It's garbage when you can't use it. It's disgusting when you can. My only gripe is it gets removed on crushes and fatal. The stacking mechanic makes it worth to take a light hit for it once you have one down. The healing gets absurd.

Of note, his sunlight on this variation is directly on top of kotal which is awesome because you get healed instantly. It also is extremely hard to stop it. You can punish but it will still come out. The synergy of taking damage to gain is apparent. With back to the wall, if you use it you can equalize any most punishes that fall under 200 damage. If you have life advantage, well they gotta get creative. If you are able to get the amp version out, well it's pretty cheap. If they buff the recovery it's gotta get nerfed.

Universal stuff.
He has a double throw crushing blow so he gets a hard Krush he can store. Throws are very good to use after you enforce blocking.

His normals are all very good at something. Use them all, I'll detail specifics next post. This in particular is why I think match up knowledge is really important.

Dash and wave dash - is very important, I saw here some people don't respect it. I think if you blind dash just like any action it's detrimental. But it is similar to tekken and marvel and used to change options rapidly. Example, from f2 range you can wave to f3 or wave jump etc. It changes your options available if they are getting used to your f2 from max distance etc. Also it counters back walk, this let's you dictate which attack you want to use. If you don't wave dash you are basically allowing them to force you to f2 to get in which is predictable.

Unblockable - is to keep players honest once you have established your game plan. It synergizes with wave dash and f2 etc. Most players will start using d4 or fast pokes to interrupt dash ups or his advancing attacks. Better use is as a meaty set up on knockdowns. They have to use wake up options to deal with it and you can change it's timing since it has 9 frames active.

Parry - it's slowish but it does work vs all ground attacks. It so far has given a couple frames on moves I've tested. I think it's variable though depending on block stun values. I have to lab it more but so far I've been able to use it to set up flawless against strings easier. Mostly though been using it to gain small advantage in dealing with projectiles. Needs extensive labbing to see where it works.

Disk throw - it's a decent counter zone with the krush. With blood totem though you win every trade. So that's nice.

Hop - unfortunately his hop attacks are just below useful. If he had some longer frame advantage knockdowns it would have small use but right now I use hop more than the attack itself. I need to lab more. The only really use I've found is to beat d4 but that's a hard read for the amount of danger you are in. I think somehow I was crushing D1 with the punch version but it may have been a fluke or character specific.

 

[AK Harold]

Alright Kotal normals. Just a general idea and bloating this thread lol. His hitboxes are very good on the weapon attacks and allow him to reach pokes etc and punish. If you find yourself getting stuffed a lot start trying B2 4 and b4 in those situations to see which one works.

In previous post I forgot to mention his blade special. DF2 it has a really good hit box as well and clears the sky. You can control what side you get as well and both options put them very close for oki.

1 good anti air, quick punish option
D1 standard use as advertised
F1 quick far punish move, decent movement option select to gain ground

2 has a funky hit box, unsure how to capitalize yet
F2 the long range hail Mary, it's pretty nice if you want to get in there
D2 standard but it seems to hit extra vertical
B2 really great high that has no hurtbox on the sword, can break a lot of defensive tools like cetrion wall etc.

3. Nice high that checks forward movement
F3 great low poke forces blocks at dash distance
D3 nice standard low with low profile

4. Another sword move with no hurtbox, less space commitment than B2
F4 the enforcer mid, this trains blocking to prevent neutral ducking
D4 standard d4 the plus frames on hit let you pretty much do whatever you want
B4 excellent sweep, great to punish advancing strings and pokes. Give a much needed close knockdown

J1 far reaching air move, hits at a flat angle so it's weak to s1
J2 seems to hit better cross up than J1
J3 a pretty low reaching kick let's you sneak jump in from time to time. If you anticipate over jumping or a walk under you have to activate early to have it cross up

Hop1 faster option short range harder to punish, for some reason it catches air a lot
Hop3 longer range option easy to punish on block

U2 huge hit box launcher, punishable at -10
U3 nice mid wake up, the range is not too good though gives nice frames on hit

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Panther dash can be amp to projectile immune. It is only a good reaction vs a very limited amount of tools. Overall not that great. It's a go-to damage ender for combos if you don't want to amp or want to reset to a jump distance.

I would like to ask , since im playing on PC , how do u amp panther dash ? It has no mentions in game nor in turtorial . Was it added in patches or was it from day one ?
P.S. ty for the breakdown of his kit , i like ur thinking but i kinda have a feeling they fucked up in variation department, Kahn cut should of been default move and his sword cut should of been variation swap with command grab.