Joker 1.03 Patch Thoughts (from a actual joker player)

[Necrophia]

The idea of following a combo after a parry might be a great idea. Instead of pulling the opponent out to the other side of the screen like it does, Joker kicks him (as he does) and leaves him in a stun status during a very few seconds, which you can combo and also use the HA boost on your advantage.

Is another way to make the parry more dangerous and an actual trait, since can use the HAs at the moment it triggers.

 

[Cat]

I'm glad they buffed the damage on his low parry since it did crap for damage, what was it 5%? lol I'm also loving the many ideas on how to buff his trait, it must not be easy for them to decide on how exactly they should buff it.

2%. Lol

 

[Dr Jackal]

The idea of following a combo after a parry might be a great idea. Instead of pulling the opponent out to the other side of the screen like it does, Joker kicks him (as he does) and leaves him in a stun status during a very few seconds, which you can combo and also use the HA boost on your advantage.

Is another way to make the parry more dangerous and an actual trait, since can use the HAs at the moment it triggers.

Glad you like it. And it can be an exclusive trait. Joker would be really stronger And a good midtier

 

[Necrophia]

I'm going a moment out of the trait topic for comment a thing about the gun.

What about the longer is delayed, the stronger is? Not saying to go from 8% to insane%, but the idea comes that is a chance to make Joker do the old joke of him pulling a BANG! flag out the barrel, for then being actually shoot.
It also gives the delayed shot another purpose than bluffing, by increasing damage slightly and making one of Joker's signature jokes. The gun is good but not a highly reliable zoning tool compared to others, but with charged shots will force the opponent to come in Joker's range and deal with zoning as he's limited in this aspect.

 

[laudanum09]

Cool ideas everyone thanks for the insight Dr Jackal

For SSF4AE 2013 (what a mouthful) , we were all given character threads on Capcom Unity and we all gave suggestions. Combofiend took all the most popular suggestions and presented them to Capcom. We should do something similar, build a consensus of top ideas (we don' t have to agree on everything, just as long as we sort out ideas that majority think are unrealistic) and then make a thread and tag everyone in it, twitter a link etc. It'll be better for them to have just one concise post and will show we're at a consensus as a community and know what we want, not just throwing out random buffs because we want to be the next Superman.

I'm assuming sooner the better before the next official patch?

 

[Cat]

Cool ideas everyone thanks for the insight Dr Jackal

For SSF4AE 2013 (what a mouthful) , we were all given character threads on Capcom Unity and we all gave suggestions. Combofiend took all the most popular suggestions and presented them to Capcom. We should do something similar, build a consensus of top ideas (we don' t have to agree on everything, just as long as we sort out ideas that majority think are unrealistic) and then make a thread and tag everyone in it, twitter a link etc. It'll be better for them to have just one concise post and will show we're at a consensus as a community and know what we want, not just throwing out random buffs because we want to be the next Superman.

I'm assuming sooner the better before the next official patch?

I was thinking of doing this. I'm gonna make a new thread later today.

I'll post the top ideas and give them numbers 1-5 or whatever. And add a voting poll , to let everyone vote on the buff idea that's the best and most reasonable. Tagg some ppl. And after awhile everyone should tweet pako, hector or boon the thread so they can hopefully take it into consideration.

 

[Dr Jackal]

Ok with that guys this is exactly what I suggest. We have to be really realistic for this thread.

Cat, I will pm you what I think later (in 2 hours)

Let s put Joker midtier !

 

[BlackBryan]

Aight, so I'm not gonna pretend like I know what's up with the joker. But b2, if timed right, and with teeth, can lead to more damage, or even some pretty decent setups.

Tools that seem useless aren't, you just haven't figured them out yet.

That also doesn't mean tools that seem useless are op, just means they have some sort of game.

Also also also, if someone already said all this, i didn't finish the thread, my bad.

 

[Cat]

Aight, so I'm not gonna pretend like I know what's up with the joker. But b2, if timed right, and with teeth, can lead to more damage, or even some pretty decent setups.

Tools that seem useless aren't, you just haven't figured them out yet.

That also doesn't mean tools that seem useless are op, just means they have some sort of game.

Also also also, if someone already said all this, i didn't finish the thread, my bad.

There's no way to set up teeth and try and do b2 safely. B2 start up is too big. Opponents can back dash. Jump out. Etc.

 

[JRosa21]

my thoughts? see you in two weeks when he gets buffed again.

 

[laudanum09]

I was thinking of doing this. I'm gonna make a new thread later today.

I'll post the top ideas and give them numbers 1-5 or whatever. And add a voting poll , to let everyone vote on the buff idea that's the best and most reasonable. Tagg some ppl. And after awhile everyone should tweet pako, hector or boon the thread so they can hopefully take it into consideration.

Tight. Also, LOLing at KH stream's latest. All your homies are soooo salty about Joker lol. "The teeth come out too fast..." "That's just a flowchart" LOL WTF are they talking about?

my thoughts? see you in two weeks when he gets buffed again.

You're a well known, high placing Marvel player you should throw in your two cents so Cat can at least quote you and give some more exposure to his upcoming thread.
We also need to get Valle on here so he can chime in too and Cat can also teach him how to play Joker while he's at it.

 

[shoshinsha]

Very simply, either the risk for building trait needs to be a lot lower, or the reward needs to be a lot higher, or a little of both. Ideally, I'd like it not to be a parry at all. Here's my first suggestion:

1. Make HAs build up over time, or while joker is blocking, or something like that. Make them build passively. This fits the character since the longer Joker hangs around the crazier he's going to get.

1a. Make HAs able to be burned in some way. Ways to use them up include:
-If Joker is out of meter, he can get a free meter burn by using up a HA.
-A HA can be burned to give his gunshot a wall bounce.
-A HA can be burned to give his laughing gas reverse opponent's controls for a second.
-A HA can be burned to poison the opponent with acid flower for damage over time.

2. However, if it must be a parry, my suggestion is that its properties should be changed thus:
2a. 1-frame activation
2b. Holdable up to 1 second
2c. Dash-cancelable
2d. Make HAs last the entire round.

 

[Necrophia]

Very simply, either the risk for building trait needs to be a lot lower, or the reward needs to be a lot higher, or a little of both. Ideally, I'd like it not to be a parry at all. Here's my first suggestion:

1. Make HAs build up over time, or while joker is blocking, or something like that. Make them build passively. This fits the character since the longer Joker hangs around the crazier he's going to get.

1a. Make HAs able to be burned in some way. Ways to use them up include:
-If Joker is out of meter, he can get a free meter burn by using up a HA.
-A HA can be burned to give his gunshot a wall bounce.
-A HA can be burned to give his laughing gas reverse opponent's controls for a second.
-A HA can be burned to poison the opponent with acid flower for damage over time.

2. However, if it must be a parry, my suggestion is that its properties should be changed thus:
2a. 1-frame activation
2b. Holdable up to 1 second
2c. Dash-cancelable
2d. Make HAs last the entire round.

We already pointed out an idea that some Joker attacks might build HA meter. But for now we're sticking with just the parry.

The wall bouncing shots is Lobo's trait (basically) and we already have clone traits (GL/Superman), while reversing controls will be too unfair as Joker can keep teething the opponent while tries to get used to the new controls (I play Persona 4 Arena and i can confirm that reverse controls is the worst thing to you to happen while in pressure). Poison flower seems fine at first but as how it is i don't see it truly necessary since as combo finisher already deal solid damage and works well as wake-up.

Possibly the best option (in my opinion) is to give more active frames and able to parry jump attacks with a third command. Full round HAs might be too much depending the match-up.

 

[burzy306]

vi·a·ble

[vahy-uh-buh

l] Show IPA
adjective

1.​

capable of living.

2.​

Physiology .

a.​

physically fitted to live.

b.​

(of a fetus) having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normalconditions, outside the uterus.

3.​

Botany . able to live and grow.

4.​

vivid; real; stimulating, as to the intellect, imagination, or senses: a period of history that few teacherscan make viable for students.

5.​

practicable; workable: a viable alternative.

-----------
I think the NRS crowd needs a new word for "can win tournaments consistantly without making the player think too hard.

 

[Helter Skelter]

I wish people would look at my last post and at least comment on it.

The Joker's Trait needs an obvious buff, but his actual toolset need serious property changes.
Relying on his trait to give him access to some stupid will not make him solid. It'll just make him gimmicky.

We need to understand that the best characters have solid tools AND a strong gimmick/trait afterwards.

Superman, Black Adam, Aquaman, Cyborg, Killer Frost are all better with their traits.
However, they have good tools anyway, so using their trait further improves what they already have.

The idea proposed by Necrophia about making Joker's Wild cause a stun/crumple is actually a very good idea. It doesn't seem impossible to implement mechanically and doesn't too broken if damage scaling is added.

The Joker is my favourite character in this game. I'm forced to play Ares because The Joker just cannot compete with a lot of the top characters. It doesn't have to be like this.

 

[BlackBryan]

There's no way to set up teeth and try and do b2 safely. B2 start up is too big. Opponents can back dash. Jump out. Etc.

If you read a dash when you throw out teeth on knockdown, b2 will at least create some space, and at most, will connect at the same time as teeth. When this happens it uses the animation for teeth, launching for full combo punish, and adding extra damage/guarding forward, or if you're close enough, some back dashes.

Again, i don't use joker, and I'm not saying its the most useful tech in the world, but b2 isn't useless. Its just not incredibly useful, at the same time.

 

[Necrophia]

I wish people would look at my last post and at least comment on it.

The Joker's Trait needs an obvious buff, but his actual toolset need serious property changes.
Relying on his trait to give him access to some stupid will not make him solid. It'll just make him gimmicky.

We need to understand that the best characters have solid tools AND a strong gimmick/trait afterwards.

Superman, Black Adam, Aquaman, Cyborg, Killer Frost are all better with their traits.
However, they have good tools anyway, so using their trait further improves what they already have.

The idea proposed by Necrophia about making Joker's Wild cause a stun/crumple is actually a very good idea. It doesn't seem impossible to implement mechanically and doesn't too broken if damage scaling is added.

The Joker is my favourite character in this game. I'm forced to play Ares because The Joker just cannot compete with a lot of the top characters. It doesn't have to be like this.

The idea is not mine but of Jackal

My thing with the Joker is that his trait is not as relevant and threatening as the rest of the cast's. Superman and GL can boost themselves in midcombo, Batman can control space with his bats... Heck, Aquaman has a better trait against pressure.

Joker's is a too frame precise parry when Batman can cover in his cape and as long is covered any attack is parried. The HA even now is boosted, kicking the opponent out of your range when the parry triggers wastes time of the boost and often all you can do is throw teeth faster, and having three HAs stacked in a real match is near impossible.

Sure the Joker needs some tweaks here and there but is not a terrible character overall. Is just that his trait ends in a gamble, and if it connects you get a brief boost and that's it. The stun and more active frames is one of many options to make his trait as reliable as the rest of characters'.

 

[laudanum09]

Lets sort out how we all feel on trait before discussing other issues.

It will help us be more focused so it's easier for Cat to make the thread for NRS.

Right now it seems like most of us want both a parry buff and a Ha buff of some sort. To that point now I think HAs should give modest and realistic buffs. Keep the speed boost but buff how we use it and how quickly they drain. We activate with MB+Trait and each HA lasts for the same rate so 3 HAs will last 3 times as long as 1 Ha. Each Ha is as fast as 3 Has currently so we'll actually get something out of 1 HA and we can use them strategically, kind of like how Batman still gets a good use out of a single Bat.

If HAs are buffed modestly like that to the point where it's still mid-low tier stat boost, parry should be pretty damn good, enough to realistically get 3 HAs a game. I think like 90% of traits are just 1 button activation with setup possibilities or combo/cancel features to remove all risk. Parry should be comparable and at least mid-tier in comparison. We don't get air teleports and huge damage buffs, free combo breaks or rushdown so Trait should be reasonable strong and easy to use. 1-2 frame gaps should be punishble with ease. A holdable, 1 frame high/low/mid universal parry would do this. After 3 Has are stacked, we can't parry again until they drain + cooldown.

Thoughts?

 

[CCVengeance]

I am not a Joker player but he is one of my favorite characters to fight and see so I want him to suceed.
I've pretty much been thinking this since week one but I think what his trait needs is:
-Make it one-frame,of course.
-Make it so the "Ha" boost last till he gets hit.
How about that?

 

[laudanum09]

I am not a Joker player but he is one of my favorite characters to fight and see so I want him to suceed.
I've pretty much been thinking this since week one but I think what his trait needs is:
-Make it one-frame,of course.
-Make it so the "Ha" boost last till he gets hit.
How about that?

Out of all the 'push a button to get stat boost' characters LOSE the buff if they get hit? That's my only gripe, we shouldn't lose it at all until we spend it. It's not like we get a damage boost, multi-hit super armor, or extra special moves or properties.

 

[CCVengeance]

Out of all the 'push a button to get stat boost' characters LOSE the buff if they get hit? That's my only gripe, we shouldn't lose it at all until we spend it. It's not like we get a damage boost, multi-hit super armor, or extra special moves or properties.

I see what you mean.Then if not that I have no clue lol.I dont think they can make a completely,radically different trait and trait properties now.You get a parry that gives you a speed boost.We just need to make changes that would make this trait worthwhile.

 

[laudanum09]

I see what you mean.Then if not that I have no clue lol.I dont think they can make a completely,radically different trait and trait properties now.You get a parry that gives you a speed boost.We just need to make changes that would make this trait worthwhile.

Yeah, the post above yours I talk about that. Each HA lasts the same amount of time so 3 HAs last 3 times as long as 1 HA. Activate with MB+Trait. Make parry easy and consistent to use so we can realistically get this modest stat boost at least 3 times a game. 1 frame, holdable, safe recovery. Simple changes.

 

[TooMuchBob]

I've really taken a liking to Joker and have played him the most of any of the cast. TBH, I really like his trait design, in theory the character is one of the most well put together designs in a long time. His design is all about confusing and frustrating your opponent into doing bad things, and that's exactly what the joker would want from his opponent.

The parry is the icing on the cake. The Joker is much like Makoto is SF4, her offense is so frustrating that people just press buttons desperate for a way out. I've learned how to parry KF slide on wakeup after setup, avoid grundy throws with low parry, etc. His strings are all pretty safe and let you parry your opponents wakeups pretty easy, it just takes some conditioning. Really, I only have small issues with his trait and propose the following changes:

HAs are permanent throughout the round. LBSH, no one at top level is going to consistently get 3 HAs in a round, and even if they did, that last one would come mighty late in the match.

Improve the speed per level of HA. It seems like only 3 HAs are worth a damn, levels 1 and 2 are barely noticeable, this should be improved or evened out across all levels of HA.

Let teeth combo off of parry! This is the most important one! Teeth pop people out of throw attempts but not out of parry, this is dumb. If I put teeth on you on wakeup, you try to to wakeup with a special and I parry it, under those specific conditions, I should be rewarded with a combo off teeth.

 

[burzy306]

I think we'll see no major changes to trait unfortunately. Best we should hope for it to be on par with bat's parry.

 

[Jack White]

Ok, here's an idea. HA has a recharge timer. Think of it like Flash's trait. You have 3 Ha slots, and you always start with 1. db trait will activate that one HA and give you 3 seconds of being under the effects of 3 HA's like it is now. After those 3 seconds are out, it takes 7 seconds to recharge the trait. Just pressing the trait button activates the counter (holding down gives you the low counter). The counter has been buffed to acceptable active frames and ending frames (much better than Batman's and Frost's). Upon a successful counter, you get an extra HA slot, and it recharges your HA meter to max. At this point, your db trait ability lasts 6 seconds long instead of 3 thanks to that extra HA slot. A 3rd counter gives you a third HA slot that gives you 9 seconds of potential trait activation. No matter how many Ha's you get, the recharge time will always be 7 seconds.

Additional side buff idea: Meter burning the counter will make it do around 7% bleed damage.

So, what do you think hmm? Trying to combine the best of both worlds. Instant buff button, skill indexed side ability overall.