Question Is it possible for SZ to beat a top level Raiden online

[OnizukaPM]

I still use many 22`s,

30% of time 22
70% of time 21

 

[salvificblood]

The key tool is really Ice Clone. To me, anyway.

Not to pick on you, but this is really why I wish Tom Brady still gave suggestions on these boards. If somebody who'd just picked up Sub-Zero visted this page, the conclusion they'd come away with would be: to beat Raiden, do an ice clone and walk in front of it. OK... Report back with your findings, lol.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Oh, it's possible all right.

Plant the Ice Clone on the other side of the screen, keep near it, and be ready to laugh if the Raiden player teleports. He'll appear right where the clone's at, and you know what that means. It should give you sufficient cover to try blasting the Freeze Balls, but be mindful of when Raiden either jumps or counters with his own projectiles.

The 2 1 2 string can be countered by a variety of armored moves, and Raiden's Enhanced Electric Grab is one of them. Do NOT risk that string. Definitely go with 2 2 4 Ice Clone or 2 1 4 Ice Clone as your choice of block pressure.

Depending on how much lag there is, you can counter Raiden's teleport with 2 2 Freeze Ball if you make the correct reads. But if I were you, I'd just go with 2 2 4 or 2 1 4 against the teleport...to be on the safe side.

I'd keep the fight midscreen rather than at the corner. Raiden simply can't be cornered, but he can apply great corner pressure himself, so don't let Sub-Zero end up at that wall or you could be in for some pain.

Other than all that, don't try playing footsies against Raiden, he's superior in those terms. Use that clone to approach him and get in his face, all the while staying on the watch for his Superman move.

I know some of this has been said already, but I'm simply giving my thoughts on the topic.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Not to pick on you, but this is really why I wish Tom Brady still gave suggestions on these boards. If somebody who'd just picked up Sub-Zero visted this page, the conclusion they'd come away with would be: to beat Raiden, do an ice clone and walk in front of it. OK... Report back with your findings, lol.

I know what you mean.
I believe that Tom just assumed that everyone (mostly those not maining Subbzy) was trolling him (look at the people hes banned during his shows on Twitch.tv).

Btw, for those who are naive on Subbzy: If you walk in front of your Ice Clone, it will be behind you.
...guess where Raiden teleports to? :O

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Oh, it's possible all right.

Plant the Ice Clone on the other side of the screen, keep near it, and be ready to laugh if the Raiden player teleports. He'll appear right where the clone's at, and you know what that means. It should give you sufficient cover to try blasting the Freeze Balls, but be mindful of when Raiden either jumps or counters with his own projectiles.

The 2 1 2 string can be countered by a variety of armored moves, and Raiden's Enhanced Electric Grab is one of them. Do NOT risk that string. Definitely go with 2 2 4 Ice Clone or 2 1 4 Ice Clone as your choice of block pressure.

Depending on how much lag there is, you can counter Raiden's teleport with 2 2 Freeze Ball if you make the correct reads. But if I were you, I'd just go with 2 2 4 or 2 1 4 against the teleport...to be on the safe side.

I'd keep the fight midscreen rather than at the corner. Raiden simply can't be cornered, but he can apply great corner pressure himself, so don't let Sub-Zero end up at that wall or you could be in for some pain.

Other than all that, don't try playing footsies against Raiden, he's superior in those terms. Use that clone to approach him and get in his face, all the while staying on the watch for his Superman move.

I know some of this has been said already, but I'm simply giving my thoughts on the topic.

I'd say its the other way around:

- Get Raiden into the corner by any means
- Ice clone like you would any matchup
- End combos in slide for untechable knockdown

He cant tele so this is where it gets good for Sub, Raiden would teleport straight back into the corner, and since you've just given him an untechable knockdown you basically get a free jump at Raiden, unless he times an Ex shocker well enough.

He doesnt need meter to punish the 212 he can just teleport out of it and whiff punish the 2 for 37%. Strictly 214 and 22s in this matchup IMO.

Dont try this 'put up a clone and stand infront of it because that doesnt mean anything. Raidens B3 out ranges all of SZs moves so if Sub is stood infront of a clone that means Raiden can approach him almost for free, especially considering Raidens AA game is so easy to do too. So thats what a Raiden player should want you to do really, being fearful of his teleport when there is no teleport coming is advantage to Raiden all the time.

As long as every combo is ended in a slide, he shouldnt be able to teleport out if you jump at the correct time, he will just teleport infront of where your jump will land still vulnerable and able to be comboed.

Matchup sucks for SZ, Raiden can build meter whenever he wants with VBs too. This is from my experiences of playing against SZs doing those kinda things when I'm playing Raiden.

 

[Metalic]

Btw, for those who are naive on Subbzy: If you walk in front of your Ice Clone, it will be behind you.
...guess where Raiden teleports to? :O

He doesn't do it at all. Which means next to nothing since Raiden has no problem with staying distanced from Sub-Zero and making you approach. How do you plan on winning if you just stay planted right in front of your clone while Raiden chills out fullscreen, waiting for an iceball he can teleport on, or armor through? Lets not forget that with a clone behind you, what's stopping Raiden from just approach the same way every other character does? All it does is shut down random teleports and supermans while the clone is out, meanwhile it basically chains you to one spot. His footsies are leagues better than Subs, and he has the mental advantage for the majority of the match. Sub has to approach careful as hell, and once in he has to make amazing reads and take risks you REALLY don't want to take. It's just an uphill battle, even when you're winning. It's just a nasty game to play.

 

[Bidu]

How is it an even matchup? There's no way Sub-Zero goes 5-5 with Raiden. Against scrubby online Raidens, yeah, you win by blocking random supermans and waiting for him to teleport but Raiden nullifies your best pressure string 21 by being able to teleport between 1 and 2, he doesn't respect your zoning game since a smart teleport will completely bypass all your attempts to zone him with iceballs or clones. And I ask, why does the Raiden player care if you start cloning midscreen and walking in front of it? You can't beat him by doing that all game. He doesn;t have to go anywhere near you. He also doesn't have to respect your corner pressure at all, etc, etc. It's at least 6.5-3.5 in Raiden's favour.

No, it's not.

 

[Big Pampering]

might as well make the topic into can sub beat a raiden at that level at all.

 

[Lord Beef]

No, it's not.

Care to shed some light bidu?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

[Bidu]

Maybe I haven't faced a Raiden of the caliber of B wizz or PerfectLegend, but in my experience it's a very, very even match. How can someone say that Raiden doesn't respect SZ zoning game? I consider Raiden to be the only character in this game that you must respect, no matter what character you're playing. Since you can't really zone him or rushdown his ass. Most of the time a Raiden player will impose his game, but that's not really easy against a top SZ player. Mostly because of the Ice Clone Raiden can't rushdown SZ as easily. I believe (not sure) Sub-Zero's 2,2 is faster than any of Raiden's normals which is a great advantage. Other than that I do agree with most said by A F0xy Grandpa. Always finish off your combos with a Slide (and that goes not only against Raiden, imo that time when SZ players didn't finish off their combos with Slide is in the past).

 

[salvificblood]

Maybe I haven't faced a Raiden of the caliber of B wizz or PerfectLegend, but in my experience it's a very, very even match. How can someone say that Raiden doesn't respect SZ zoning game? I consider Raiden to be the only character in this game that you must respect, no matter what character you're playing. Since you can't really zone him or rushdown his ass. Most of the time a Raiden player will impose his game, but that's not really easy against a top SZ player. Mostly because of the Ice Clone Raiden can't rushdown SZ as easily. I believe (not sure) Sub-Zero's 2,2 is faster than any of Raiden's normals which is a great advantage. Other than that I do agree with most said by A F0xy Grandpa. Always finish off your combos with a Slide (and that goes not only against Raiden, imo that time when SZ players didn't finish off their combos with Slide is in the past).

The clone doesn't make Raiden play a way he doesn't want to play already. The clone should not be used to prevent the Raiden player from teleporting or using supermans. In this matchup, Raiden can outrange you with his strings so it doesn't matter that your 22 is faster, 22 is just good for punishing the teleport for a full combo. You should use the fact Raiden has rangier normals by baiting him into a late clone. He has to start his offensive strings early to beat you out. If you try to plop the clone at midscreen and hide behind it, you're being counterporductive and making the matchup even more difficult for yourself. A good Raiden doesn't care about you cloning and walking around by it. The clone doesn't last forever, and why would raiden have to rush you down in this matchup anyway? A good Raiden will just play footsies with you all game.

Ending combos with the slide is something I've always believed in. Untechable knockdowns are a real pain for anyone, especially ones that have good wall carry and leave you with decent frame advanatge.

 

[OnizukaPM]

Maybe I haven't faced a Raiden of the caliber of B wizz or PerfectLegend, but in my experience it's a very, very even match. How can someone say that Raiden doesn't respect SZ zoning game? I consider Raiden to be the only character in this game that you must respect, no matter what character you're playing. Since you can't really zone him or rushdown his ass. Most of the time a Raiden player will impose his game, but that's not really easy against a top SZ player. Mostly because of the Ice Clone Raiden can't rushdown SZ as easily. I believe (not sure) Sub-Zero's 2,2 is faster than any of Raiden's normals which is a great advantage. Other than that I do agree with most said by A F0xy Grandpa. Always finish off your combos with a Slide (and that goes not only against Raiden, imo that time when SZ players didn't finish off their combos with Slide is in the past).

can u explain?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I think this is a slight advantage to raiden BECAUSE at the beginning of the match he is at an advantage.

f0xy is right. Sub Zero's game is built around the wall. You mean to tell me Raiden wants to sit in the corner? No. He will eventually try to teleport out. I would suggest not ending wall combo's in slide... to place the clone back far enough that a teleport lands in it. You can easily then dash up and 2,2 for free really. Raiden is more predictable in the corner, that is a fact.

Sal I think cloning and pushing to the corner is the key. Not hiding behind or in front... but actively cloning and attacking. 2,2 will beat b3 if done properly. Its not like you play like a robot or anything. Random slides will keep Raiden from doing things like VB whenever he wants. If you read a teleport, dash into it Raiden. That will effectively put you out of range of everything but b3,1,2 but you clone will come out.

You sort of have to play a Raiden style... making him make the first move and counter punching him with certain tactics. I'm also pretty sure a well timed d4 will poke out b3 at certain ranges. Not sure on that and will test more.

 

[Dark_Rob]

In truth the only person really qualified to talk competently about the Sub vs. Raiden match at the highest level is Tom Brady . He's played that match with Jop thousands of times and knows it inside and out. Im pretty sure he thinks its even, but with the caveot that its only even because of how well he knows the matchup.
Without that kind of intense matchup experience I think the Raiden player would have the advantage. The two types of characters Sub struggles with are heavy zoners that he has to get close to, or characters that he can't keep in front of him, characters that can switch sides on him at will like Raiden and Kung Lao

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

is it because he turns around like a fucking troll? I swear he is slower than every other character in the game at switching his direction.

 

[salvificblood]

I think this is a slight advantage to raiden BECAUSE at the beginning of the match he is at an advantage.

f0xy is right. Sub Zero's game is built around the wall. You mean to tell me Raiden wants to sit in the corner? No. He will eventually try to teleport out. I would suggest not ending wall combo's in slide... to place the clone back far enough that a teleport lands in it. You can easily then dash up and 2,2 for free really. Raiden is more predictable in the corner, that is a fact.

Sal I think cloning and pushing to the corner is the key. Not hiding behind or in front... but actively cloning and attacking. 2,2 will beat b3 if done properly. Its not like you play like a robot or anything. Random slides will keep Raiden from doing things like VB whenever he wants. If you read a teleport, dash into it Raiden. That will effectively put you out of range of everything but b3,1,2 but you clone will come out.

You sort of have to play a Raiden style... making him make the first move and counter punching him with certain tactics. I'm also pretty sure a well timed d4 will poke out b3 at certain ranges. Not sure on that and will test more.

Raiden recovers very quickly from VC blast. You can't really use the slide to stop him doing it. Raiden can afford to be a bit obnoxious about it because one blocked slide is so much worse for you than a couple of well-timed slides is for him. If I read a teleport, I just hit him with 22, freeze. The trouble is, Raiden shouldn't teleport like that, he should be teleporting on reaction to stuff. If you play against somebody's who's very fast with Raiden, (Foxy is really fast with all his characters), you will see why this matchup is so difficult for Sub-Zero.

I try to corner Raiden as much as possible. I really do, lol, it's just very difficult. You can't clone and attack at the same time and that's part of the problem for Sub-Zero going forward in this matchup. It's only when you have him in the corner that you can dump clones and just walk up to him and attack.

 

[Bidu]

can u explain?

It's a well know fact that in the past most SZ players didn't liked to Slide at the corner for 2 reasons:

1) Because Tom Brady made it cool;

2) Because it would leave more time to set up Ice Clone.

Now days with SZ damage taken away (AKA the removal of Ice Puddle reset), I always finish off my combos with Slide. Always. Midscreen, corner, doesn't really matter. Plus it's not really possible to tech out when it's a Slide knocking you down, which gives me space to crossup, what is always great against some characters.

 

[OnizukaPM]

It's a well know fact that in the past most SZ players didn't liked to Slide at the corner for 2 reasons:

1) Because Tom Brady made it cool;

2) Because it would leave more time to set up Ice Clone.

Now days with SZ damage taken away (AKA the removal of Ice Puddle reset), I always finish off my combos with Slide. Always. Midscreen, corner, doesn't really matter. Plus it's not really possible to tech out when it's a Slide knocking you down, which gives me space to crossup, what is always great against some characters.

So you are suggesting that ending combos with slide will give me enough time to set up comfortably clone?

 

[Bidu]

No, I'm suggesting that ending your combos with Slide will lead to more damaging combos (obviously) and that it's a untechable know down by Slide's proprieties.

 

[Via_Negativa]

I agree with this sentiment. You need all the damage you can get with sub these days, and honestly in the corner you can still set up a clone after a combo with good read's. I watched a lot of brady tournament video's with him being really conservative and not finishing with slide often. It rarely worked in his favor and that extra damage definitely would have actually won him rounds in a lot of cases. So you might as well go for all the damage you can get and punish bad wakeup's attempts.