Instant-air projectiles

[TarkatanDentist]

Admittedly this isn't Injustice-exclusive, as such, but it's mostly in NRS games that this crops up.

Now, just to clarify early on, I don't have a problem with instant-air projectiles in and of themselves. However, it has to be said that NRS's method of balancing them is less than stellar at times. In both MK9 and Injustice, certain instant-air projectiles can make it very difficult for certain characters to approach at all. In at least one case as exposed recently (Zod vs Lex), it can be almost literally impossible to move at all. This has led to a lot of 3-7 and 2-8 MUs over the years, and that... that isn't good.

But what about if instant-air projectiles hit airborne opponents only?

Even with the caveat that they automatically whiff on grounded opponents, they're still very useful. They usually have faster recovery, they're still good for air control and discouraging jumping and often are very useful for building meter too. But if they only hit airborne opponents, it means you couldn't simply instant-air projectile all day and stop them from approaching, since then they can just dash forwards and not get hit. You can still make approaching annoying for them, but not difficult to the point of ridiculousness.

NRS have already (belatedly) realised that mid instant-air projectiles are a massive no-no and removed them - why not go one step further and make them only hit opponents in the air?

And I do realise that for certain characters, such a measure is rather unnecessary - Kitana, for example, has instant-air projectiles and is pretty well-balanced. But IMO, certain characters struggle with instant-air projectiles beyond a point which is reasonable, and changing all of them up to be able to deal with instant-air projectiles has a high risk of making them heavily overpowered. With that in mind, air hit-only instant-air projectiles seem like the best compromise.

 

[Red Reaper]

And give Sektor an instant air teleport that's -8 on block with a large hitbox and pushback...

#Balance

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

And give Sektor an instant air teleport that's -8 on block with a large hitbox and pushback...

#Balance

Oh sweet that's easier to punish than his EN Teleport from MK9!

What a nice guy, asking for nerfs for your character!

 

[KIllaByte]

To prevent the moves from looking too silly, the input window for air fireballs could be changed to only actiavte in the later frames of a jump, and then EX air projectiles could be angled downwards, like Cyborg's and Zod's.

 

[bishbash]

I'm not sure only hitting airborne opponents would work, or having them only activate in the latter frames of a jump. Hawkgirl would no longer be viable If nothing she threw out in trait could hit grounded opponents.

This game has some really lopsided MUs but I understand Lex vs Zod is something else entirely. I played WW for a long time and often felt like I was constantly struggling to get in against certain characters (online this feels much harder) but to not even be able to move must be beyond frustrating. No one character should dominate another to such a point.

I think in future no character should be able to get more than one air projectile out on the screen at any one time, I think that's the real issue with Zod. Make approaching hard sure, just not impossible

 

[TarkatanDentist]

I'm not sure only hitting airborne opponents would work, or having them only activate in the latter frames of a jump. Hawkgirl would no longer be viable If nothing she threw out in trait could hit grounded opponents.

Ah, I forgot to clarify - my original post was only with reference to horizontal mid-air projectiles (which, in HG's case, wouldn't affect her much, since how often do you land mid-air straight maces against a standing opponent?). Diagonal mid-air projectiles are absolutely fine, and I have no problem with them as they are now.

Adding a delay to when mid-air projectiles can be fired could work too, but only if it was a sufficiently big delay that large characters don't get screwed over (thinking particularly of Solomon Grundy here).

 

[WakeUp DP]

IA projectiles in a game with good movement isnt an issue.

What made kabal good wasnt IAGBs but NMDCs.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Oh sweet that's easier to punish than his EN Teleport from MK9!

What a nice guy, asking for nerfs for your character!

Give him faster standing pokes!

 

[chemist4hire]

To prevent the moves from looking too silly, the input window for air fireballs could be changed to only actiavte in the later frames of a jump, and then EX air projectiles could be angled downwards, like Cyborg's and Zod's.

This is kind of what capcom did to cammy in AE and Ultra. They made it so she could no longer do instant air cannon strikes to lock people down.

 

[bishbash]

Ah, I forgot to clarify - my original post was only with reference to horizontal mid-air projectiles (which, in HG's case, wouldn't affect her much, since how often do you land mid-air straight maces against .

WE-trait air mace at lowest point of flight, pretty viable only recently started using her but it seems ok for halting approach full screen.

 

[TaffyMeat]

Damage Scaling Bruh. It should be that the consequence of having a projectile that comes out of nowhere in the air that has literally 0 frames is that it should do no damage or the more it's used the less it does. Like Kitana's fans did 4% EVERY TIME, it should be either 1% damage chip or 0% to stop people from doing it. But then little zoning bitches will cry.

"Maybe you're just like my mother
She's never satisfied
Why do we scream at each other?
This is what it sounds like when little zoning bitches will cry"

 

[SneakyTortoise]

IA projectiles in a game with good movement isnt an issue.

What made kabal good wasnt IAGBs but NMDCs.

That's not true. The combination of both those tools made him something to be feared. No gas blast would definitely have damaged him.

 

[WakeUp DP]

That's not true. The combination of both those tools made him something to be feared. No gas blast would definitely have damaged him.

No NMDCs would have cripple him.

A perfect example is Inj Cyborg. He has basically the same ability to shot IAPs but his normals are weak so he is low tier.

 

[Relaxedstate]

IA projectiles in a game with good movement isnt an issue.

What made kabal good wasnt IAGBs but NMDCs.

No NMDCs would have cripple him.

A perfect example is Inj Cyborg. He has basically the same ability to shot IAPs but his normals are weak so he is low tier.

This ^ IAFB that didn't hit standing opponents would literally be completely useless in a game that has a dash mechanic (ie., every good fighting game). Good movement mechanics are more important.

I get it though, People want to complain about zoning because it is annoying and they would rather not have to deal with it at all (which is what the OP suggestions would create).

Hitting mid/OH/low with a iafb is probably too much, unless you have to spend meter to do so, or the start up frames/projectile are slower.

But having them hit a standing opponetns is absolutely necessary. They are also some of the most difficult execution related moves in fighting games (why so few people can consistently perform them at a high level).

Edit: and even in injustice, where there is huge recovery from dashing, cyborgs fast as shit iafb isn't even a big problem for a majority of the cast

 

[xWildx]

Damage Scaling Bruh. It should be that the consequence of having a projectile that comes out of nowhere in the air that has literally 0 frames is that it should do no damage or the more it's used the less it does. Like Kitana's fans did 4% EVERY TIME, it should be either 1% damage chip or 0% to stop people from doing it. But then little zoning bitches will cry.

"Maybe you're just like my mother
She's never satisfied
Why do we scream at each other?
This is what it sounds like when little zoning bitches will cry"

If us "little zoning bitches" are beating you soley because of 4% air fans then I suggest you try a little harder.

 

[OnlineRon91]

In the SF4 series they have a height restriction that you must abide by in order to perform your airborne move. The height restriction varies between moves. Moves like Cammy's airborne EX Spiral Arrow can be done instantly, while other moves like T. Hawk's Condor Spire need the user to have some distance between himself and the ground.

Trying out something like this in future installments could help out with balancing but ultimately it is up to the developer's vision.

P.S. Not every move should have the same height restriction in my opinion. So for example, Cyborg should have a more lenient height restriction (or none) than say, Zod.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

But having them hit a standing opponetns is absolutely necessary. They are also some of the most difficult execution related moves in fighting games (why so few people can consistently perform them at a high level).

This really depends on the motion you use to do them. Pretty much every serious Kabal player had them down in MK9. When you compare this to the motions used in some anime games, some of the SF4 shenanigans, or even say trying to do Cyborg's iA's vs. Kabals, I wouldn't say that instant-airs are by necessity the most difficult moves to execute in fighting games.

 

[Relaxedstate]

This really depends on the motion you use to do them. Pretty much every serious Kabal player had them down in MK9. When you compare this to the motions used in some anime games, some of the SF4 shenanigans, or even say trying to do Cyborg's iA's vs. Kabals, I wouldn't say that instant-airs are by necessity the most difficult moves to execute in fighting games.

Sure, they are just one the toughest*.

Kabal was easy mode though (up-back up-back) lol Cyborgs tiger Knee is slightly harder, and Zods are just a little harder than that (to account for speed). Definetly not the most difficult, but often up there (*to do them consistently that is; easy to execute, but all the time in match is another story). Usually messing up has big consequences.

 

[WakeUp DP]

This really depends on the motion you use to do them. Pretty much every serious Kabal player had them down in MK9. When you compare this to the motions used in some anime games, some of the SF4 shenanigans, or even say trying to do Cyborg's iA's vs. Kabals, I wouldn't say that instant-airs are by necessity the most difficult moves to execute in fighting games.

I dont think that low or heavy execution makes a move or strategy balanced or unbalanced!

This type of mentally is wrong IMO.

Edit: A heavy execution OP char isnt any more balanced than an easy OP char.

 

[Red Reaper]

Oh sweet that's easier to punish than his EN Teleport from MK9!

What a nice guy, asking for nerfs for your character!

EX Tele in MK9 left Sektor klose..

What kan I say I'm all about that balance man.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

No NMDCs would have cripple him.

A perfect example is Inj Cyborg. He has basically the same ability to shot IAPs but his normals are weak so he is low tier.

I'm not saying it wouldn't have, but you can't say IAGB weren't an important tool in Kabal's arsenal

 

[WakeUp DP]

I'm not saying it wouldn't have, but you can't say IAGB weren't an important tool in Kabal's arsenal

It complemented Kabals game but wasn't nessesarry!

And like I said before an example is Inj Cyborg.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

It complemented Kabals game but wasn't nessesarry!

And like I said before an example is Inj Cyborg.

The cyborg example is a completely irrelevant point.

Without the IAGB certain matchups would have been much more even is my only point.

 

[WakeUp DP]

The cyborg example is a completely irrelevant point.

Without the IAGB certain matchups would have been much more even is my only point.

To a certain degree yes but that wasn't my point either.

Kabal wasn't gonna drop a whole lot on the tier list if NRs would had patched OUT his IAGBs IMO.

 

[imblackjames]

I just think that there should be a limit to how many air projectiles are on screen at once or maybe just maybe a little more recovery or them being worse on block