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I hate Sub-Zero

Johnny and Li Mei
I'll look at them too later but do these:
I'm using Sindel but I gave you universal options vs Sub Clone off pokes and his instant air divekick wether it wiffs or hits you can backdash it.
Johnny is just EX Shadow Kick and Backdash. Johnny's dashing is one of the best in the game.
I'll find creative ways to punish with Li Mei as well.
But her Armor should punish, her EX-BF1 I believe punishes.
In case you didn't see above you just Backdash into block as soon as you see him go into Divekick and you will dash out of reach and force him to wiff which puts him at -21 recovery and it's way easier to punish that than UpBlocking!
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I can just picture Tom Brady's eye twitching uncontrollably while reading the original post. LOL
I texted and linked him to this thread. Perhaps TYM will be treated to a legendary post. LOL.

Sub Zero has a plethora of knowledge checks that once you take to practice mode and learn, the match up becomes infinitively easier to fight.

I do not believe that the character is trash, but he inherently needs to take risks to win (i.e., slides, dive kicks, b+2, strings full of gaps, slow ice ball, etc.).

He is a character with very high risk and low to medium reward, depending on the kameo. He used to play very safe with access to medium reward in some of the older games.

Unquestionably, he had initially been balanced around the ice clone, but after NRS nerfed the ice clone, he is presently found in a precarious state.
 

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
I texted and linked him to this thread. Perhaps TYM will be treated to a legendary post. LOL.

Sub Zero has a plethora of knowledge checks that once you take to practice mode and learn, the match up becomes infinitively easier to fight.

I do not believe that the character is trash, but he inherently needs to take risks to win (i.e., slides, dive kicks, b+2, strings full of gaps, slow ice ball, etc.).

He is a character with very high risk and low to medium reward, depending on the kameo. He used to play very safe with access to medium reward in some of the older games.

Unquestionably, he had initially been balanced around the ice clone, but after NRS nerfed the ice clone, he is presently found in a precarious state.

That would be amazing if he became active on this site again lol. I do miss the old TYM days where there were more well know members of the community and competitive players routinely posting but, I digress.

I do agree with you about Sub Zero though. I play against a sub regularly and once you figure out his gimmicks, he becomes significantly less of a threat. You can definitely give a sub zero player enough rope to hang himself when you bait risky shit.

However, lately I've been struggling to punish SZ's gimmicks online with Geras, but that could be due to a variety of reasons.
 
That would be amazing if he became active on this site again lol. I do miss the old TYM days where there were more well know members of the community and competitive players routinely posting but, I digress.

I do agree with you about Sub Zero though. I play against a sub regularly and once you figure out his gimmicks, he becomes significantly less of a threat. You can definitely give a sub zero player enough rope to hang himself when you bait risky shit.

However, lately I've been struggling to punish SZ's gimmicks online with Geras, but that could be due to a variety of reasons.
B4 punishes poke into clone on reaction. I have a hell of a time punishing or reacting to divekicks online. The Netcode is on another level. Reminds me of MKX but somehow has Rollback. I'm even using a gaming monitor with 1ms response and 240hz, it doesn't matter it fluctuates and drops inputs or I see the moves 5-10f too late on even somewhat solid connections.

Not trying to lecture you, I'm sure you know your options but I do feel it's online that's the problem because I don't have this problem offline.
 

Shawi

Noob
So after hitting practice mode more, I’ve discovered that I can effectively guard both low and overhead options. More people online have been doing b2xxSlide so I got even more frustrated when I successfully blocked the b2 but got hit by slide.

FOR ONLINE PLAY, I have concluded that vs Sub, always block low. Always. The moment that you see him do ANYTHING, block overhead and then go straight back to low. Because the overhead comes out slower than the low and there being lag, it’ll cover all of subs options. Hopefully this helps someone.

However, lately I've been struggling to punish SZ's gimmicks online with Geras, but that could be due to a variety of reasons.
I exclusively play Geras and have the same problem. Geras’ awful pokes really don’t help vs Sub’s d1.

I texted and linked him to this thread. Perhaps TYM will be treated to a legendary post. LOL.
Awesome! Really want to know his view of sub in an ONLINE setting vs OFFLINE. I assume the majority of players by far play online.
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I know I (and others) have said this several times now ad nauseam, and I first heard it from SonicFox and agreed. Which is, just because Sub and Scorp may be “bottom tier”, that doesn’t mean they’re “bad” characters. And that a lot of us don’t think MK1 has any bad characters, and not just because Kameos can make every character viable in some way either. But we’re so conditioned to think “bottom tier = bad” because that’s typically the case.

Anyway, without going on too long of a diatribe/tangent on that aspect, I also wanted to say that you’re not really supposed to be able to easily react to Sub’s overhead or his slide. There wouldn’t be too much utility in it even being an overhead if you could 100% react to it. And this isn’t just an “online thing”. Obviously everything is easier to react to offline, and some things ARE pretty consistently reactable offline where as they’re not AS consistently reactable online. But I don’t think Sub’s OH falls into that category, especially if the Sub player is using his OH starter correctly. As for his slide, pretty much the same thing for a half to full screen slide. But an EX Slide within sweep range or so? You’re not “reacting” to that no matter if it’s online or not.

One issue when discussing “reacting” or “reactions” is not everyone is using the same definitions. Based on a strict definition, It’s very difficult to just straight up “react” to something in a fighting game. Like for instance if you were playing MK1 for the first time, never have played it or seen gameplay, but you’re familiar with NRS games. It’s gonna be difficult to react to something that you’ve even seen before in previous games, such as Scorpion’s spear full screen. But this is especially true for moves that are brand new. I know people reading this are probably thinking “well yeah, no shit sherlock”, but that would be doing something on pure reaction based on a stricter definition. Most people also would think “it’s easier to react to something the more familiar you are with it. Which is both true in a way but also untrue in another way, all depends on how we’re defining these terms. It’s very hard to “purely react” to anything in a fighting game especially if you’ve been playing it for awhile. Which again, most people would say the opposite is true. But when I’m saying “pure reaction”, what I mean is there is zero anticipation or prediction involved. Under that definition, you’d then agree with the “it’s harder to react to something the more familiar you are with it”, because the more familiar you are with it, the more anticipation and prediction becomes apart of your reactions.

However, I’d say most people use the term “react/reaction” in a less strict way. So I’d say it’d be better to refer to the aforementioned definition with the term “pure reaction” and when you’re not using it with that meaning, just use the term “reaction”.

I know this sounds confusing and unnecessary, but… everything above I wrote last night after I had taken an ambien, lmao. Sometimes those sleeping pills will make me say some wild things, surprised I didn’t end up posting it, must’ve fell asleep in the middle of it. But after re-reading all of it, I think it’s good/interesting enough to post. I went through and fixed some grammar mistakes and what not so it was more understandable though. ¯\(ツ)
 
I know I (and others) have said this several times now ad nauseam, and I first heard it from SonicFox and agreed. Which is, just because Sub and Scorp may be “bottom tier”, that doesn’t mean they’re “bad” characters. And that a lot of us don’t think MK1 has any bad characters, and not just because Kameos can make every character viable in some way either. But we’re so conditioned to think “bottom tier = bad” because that’s typically the case.

Anyway, without going on too long of a diatribe/tangent on that aspect, I also wanted to say that you’re not really supposed to be able to easily react to Sub’s overhead or his slide. There wouldn’t be too much utility in it even being an overhead if you could 100% react to it. And this isn’t just an “online thing”. Obviously everything is easier to react to offline, and some things ARE pretty consistently reactable offline where as they’re not AS consistently reactable online. But I don’t think Sub’s OH falls into that category, especially if the Sub player is using his OH starter correctly. As for his slide, pretty much the same thing for a half to full screen slide. But an EX Slide within sweep range or so? You’re not “reacting” to that no matter if it’s online or not.

One issue when discussing “reacting” or “reactions” is not everyone is using the same definitions. Based on a strict definition, It’s very difficult to just straight up “react” to something in a fighting game. Like for instance if you were playing MK1 for the first time, never have played it or seen gameplay, but you’re familiar with NRS games. It’s gonna be difficult to react to something that you’ve even seen before in previous games, such as Scorpion’s spear full screen. But this is especially true for moves that are brand new. I know people reading this are probably thinking “well yeah, no shit sherlock”, but that would be doing something on pure reaction based on a stricter definition. Most people also would think “it’s easier to react to something the more familiar you are with it. Which is both true in a way but also untrue in another way, all depends on how we’re defining these terms. It’s very hard to “purely react” to anything in a fighting game especially if you’ve been playing it for awhile. Which again, most people would say the opposite is true. But when I’m saying “pure reaction”, what I mean is there is zero anticipation or prediction involved. Under that definition, you’d then agree with the “it’s harder to react to something the more familiar you are with it”, because the more familiar you are with it, the more anticipation and prediction becomes apart of your reactions.

However, I’d say most people use the term “react/reaction” in a less strict way. So I’d say it’d be better to refer to the aforementioned definition with the term “pure reaction” and when you’re not using it with that meaning, just use the term “reaction”.

I know this sounds confusing and unnecessary, but… everything above I wrote last night after I had taken an ambien, lmao. Sometimes those sleeping pills will make me say some wild things, surprised I didn’t end up posting it, must’ve fell asleep in the middle of it. But after re-reading all of it, I think it’s good/interesting enough to post. I went through and fixed some grammar mistakes and what not so it was more understandable though. ¯\(ツ)
Absolutely true his slide isn't reactable in neutral. But against Sub I am auto blocking low and reacting to overhead. Online I can't consistently react to it and I think it's because of input delay or some wonky rollback.
But I do believe his overhead is reactable offline at least I block it over 90% and the times I get hit by it are usually while I'm caught in recovery or making a dumb read thinking a shimmy is coming.
As for every character being good. I think they are not horrible but I don't think they are good good for making Top 8 at Majors and I believe that because Sub has far more risk vs reward and when he is rewarded it's not a strong reward medium at best.
If I eventually learn how to do voice recording while in practice I would make a explanation video breaking down Subs gameplan, how almost everything he does is risky and comparing that to mid tiers risk vs reward and S+ Tiers toolset with minimal risk vs Sub Zero.
Scorpion may be viable but I hope he gets some buffs, it's kind of lame he has to do F3/F3spin Nades, what a low reward way to pressure. Javier outplayed them so hard in that tournament, the number of reads, right moves, spacing and touches it took for him to win vs a 50% character with superior mix/neutral tools. Props to Javier using Scorpion

My hope is that NRS doesn't leave it as Sub can win and give him nothing. There is a struggle with him compared to others just like Scorpion offline. My goal in balance is to try my best to bring the characters to the same level as best as possible so he isn't high risk vs low to medium reward just implementing his gameplan vs S+ Tiers being in a high reward situation for half the match once they get the upper hand and generally not in a high risk vs low reward situation in most MU's especially vs Sub and Scorpion.

I feel they could have a better gameplan like many other characters, and as long as they don't become absolutely busted I don't see an issue with Scorpion getting a Mid Mid off F3 or Sub getting a dage buff or having his clone stay out longer like +1.5Sec while keeping the rest of his many flaws.
 
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