How Raiden fits into the new meta game

[M2Dave]

Raiden is still solid, but I don't see him beating characters like Cage, Kabal, or Sonya. He also has difficult match ups vs. Jax and Reptile, for example. A highly offensive Kitana could also give him a run for his money. He does well vs. zoning characters, but any zoning character not named Freddy, Kabal, or Kenshi is probably rare and irrelevant at the moment.

 

[16 Bit]

I don't think Kitana is bad for Raiden. She can't armor through his strings and all her offensive setups can be blown up by teleport. All those moves like 2,1/2,1,2, f+2,1 and b+1,2 are whiff punished. He can even teleport through b+1,2. Raiden should always be able to make her second guess attacking.

 

[B W1zZ]

Raiden is still solid, but I don't see him beating characters like Cage, Kabal, or Sonya. He also has difficult match ups vs. Jax and Reptile, for example. A highly offensive Kitana could also give him a run for his money. He does well vs. zoning characters, but any zoning character not named Freddy, Kabal, or Kenshi is probably rare and irrelevant at the moment.

Raiden has everything he needs to beat these characters, it just takes matchup experience and doing the right things in the right situations. They have tools to counter his tools, but in most cases he has the tools to counter their counters against his tools.

 

[NKZero]

Raiden has everything he needs to beat these characters, it just takes matchup experience and doing the right things in the right situations. They have tools to counter his tools, but in most cases he has the tools to counter their counters against his tools.

Raiden is the ultimate mindfucker. No character can safely walk into this match and say that they can win with the standard strategy. Raiden forces you to play different which already means Raiden is at advantage. Reptile comes to mind as one who can maybe play some of his own game but even still he has to be wary of Raiden's teleport and Raiden can find ways to nullify Reptile's offense.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I don't think Kitana is bad for Raiden. She can't armor through his strings and all her offensive setups can be blown up by teleport. All those moves like 2,1/2,1,2, f+2,1 and b+1,2 are whiff punished. He can even teleport through b+1,2. Raiden should always be able to make her second guess attacking.

I honestly think Kitana is one of Raiden's easiest matches, no matter how skilled the Kitana player, I always feel like it's stacked against her in this match.

 

[NKZero]

UsedForGlue what d'you think Raiden's match-up chart looks like?

 

[M2Dave]

I don't think Kitana is bad for Raiden. She can't armor through his strings and all her offensive setups can be blown up by teleport. All those moves like 2,1/2,1,2, f+2,1 and b+1,2 are whiff punished. He can even teleport through b+1,2. Raiden should always be able to make her second guess attacking.

I know you mostly like to sit back and play a zoning game, but I think a highly offensive Kitana like Crazy Dominican's would be able to give any Raiden player a run for his money. I never realized 2,1 was that good until I lost to CD at MLG. In general, CD keeps losing because players keep counter-picking him with Kenshi. I saw him blow up REO's Kabal and REO counter-picking him with Kenshi. CD picked Freddy but lost. When he learns how to use Freddy correctly, Kenshi will no longer be a big problem.

Raiden has everything he needs to beat these characters, it just takes matchup experience and doing the right things in the right situations. They have tools to counter his tools, but in most cases he has the tools to counter their counters against his tools.

Until I see a high level Raiden player (whether the player be you or someone else) do very well at a major tournament while beating one of those characters, I will have my doubts.

 

[16 Bit]

That's what I'm talking about too. The whole cornerstone of her offense is putting herself at neutral with pushback so she's in position to blow up counter pokes. He can blow that shit up. Another of her strengths is that when you jump out of her pressure she's usually safe because the strings push her forward, he can whiff punish that stuff. I think it's probably even.

 

[Flagg]

I know you mostly like to sit back and play a zoning game, but I think a highly offensive Kitana like Crazy Dominican's would be able to give any Raiden player a run for his money. I never realized 2,1 was that good until I lost to CD at MLG. In general, CD keeps losing because players keep counter-picking him with Kenshi. I saw him blow up REO's Kabal and REO counter-picking him with Kenshi. CD picked Freddy but lost. When he learns how to use Freddy correctly, Kenshi will no longer be a big problem.



Until I see a high level Raiden player (whether the player be you or someone else) do very well at a major tournament while beating one of those characters, I will have my doubts.

Hmm, im never sure if opinions like this are fair. What I mean is, you say "until I see a Raiden do well at a major I have my doubts" but really, how many Raiden players are there out there? Or Freddy players? What you will see at tournies now is shitload of Kitana, Cage, Kabal, Kenshi and Jax players. It's so boring. I would love to see a Freddy player win a major, only because there aren't many Freddy's out there.

If more people played Raiden, you might see more results. Im pretty sure only BWizz and PL have gotten good results which is a testament to them as I've never really seen any other high level Raiden players.

I also think Rain or Skarlet are capable of winning a major, but again, Skarlet and Rain players are rarer than owls teeth.

EDIT: Just watched UsedForGlue video. Damn...you know it was one of your videos on Skarlet that got me onto her, and while she is a lengthy work in progress, I really think she is one of the best characters in the game. I've always thought Raiden was quite boring but you really do think outside the box and make nearly any character you're reviewing, look like a promising character to master. Full props as always.

 

[M2Dave]

Hmm, im never sure if opinions like this are fair. What I mean is, you say "until I see a Raiden do well at a major I have my doubts" but really, how many Raiden players are there out there? Or Freddy players? What you will see at tournies now is shitload of Kitana, Cage, Kabal, Kenshi and Jax players. It's so boring. I would love to see a Freddy player win a major, only because there aren't many Freddy's out there.

I'm working on winning a major tournament with Freddy. Realistically, it's difficult because the moment players know you're a Freddy player they start picking characters like Kung Lao and Smoke, and if you don't know the match up very, very well, you can't win. Indeed, the game is about match ups, and wherever Freddy may be on the tier list, he does well vs. several top tier characters like Cage, Jax, Kabal, Kenshi, Kitana, and Sonya. Does Raiden do well against any of these characters? Does he beat any at the highest level of play? I'm not sure, and that's all I'm saying. It also doesn't help that players like CD Jr. and Maxter think he's overrated, so he doesn't get the representation he needs.

 

[UsedForGlue]

That's what I'm talking about too. The whole cornerstone of her offense is putting herself at neutral with pushback so she's in position to blow up counter pokes. He can blow that shit up. Another of her strengths is that when you jump out of her pressure she's usually safe because the strings push her forward, he can whiff punish that stuff. I think it's probably even.

Raiden is the king of 0.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Come one man this is basic stuff.When you put in other variables he's still good but he's not the God as he should be.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Raiden's good until people start doing nothing vs him. He sucks at dealing with someone lame.

Yeah exactly. That's when Raiden has to either spam lightning bolts or try to get in. Lightning can be ducked. And we all know teleport can be blown up.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Dude, after watching the video... maaaan, so much stuff I'm gonna use with my Raiden now.

No more just doing 334, F24, and en tele's into B312.

You have just made my Raiden way better. (hopefully) ... I freakin wrote shit down! lmao

 

[Peckapowa]

how about this, hypothetically u counter a poke with a teleport and the duration frames on a d1 (like raidens) are 25 and the duration frames of the teleport are 29 and it takes the character how many frames to turn around? not punishing naything

now what happens if they read ur teleport?

now what happens against characters who have 20 frame d3 durations and u counter their poke with a teleport? especially when they have an auto-correcting move to follow up there pokes with

what about when i decide to land a d1 and get 1 frame of advantage any my fastest string against crouching opponents is 12 frames....

i find myself doing a lot of backdashes, the only way you get damage is a whiff punish or a grab...

first of all im not saying raiden is bad, i just want to clarify things, i mean for christ sakes he can teleport out of pokes on hit it just makes things funky.


Okay i would really like a response to this let me share an example

johnny cages d1
=25 frames of duration, -13 on block, 6 frames execution

johnny cages d3

20 frames of duration, -7 on block, 7 frames execution


raiden
teleport = 29 frames of duration
fastest punisher f2 12 frames (121 wont work on crouchers)


so wouldnt the risk reward be awful on attempting to counter=poke with teleport be awful considering that his d1 actually has less frames of duration then your teleport, considering you wouldnt even get a punish? unless you bait a punish with an ex teleport which i didnt see mentioned once. Then again you can always backdash and whiff punish however if thats all you are really doing....

also do are you really capable of "blowing up" a d1 consistently with f24 like you said i mean you have to just frame the punish considering its only -13... i get that you have about 25 frames to reaction and thats a quarter second which i guess is human reaction rate.... and a blocked f24 leads you in solid position i suppose however when are you ever actually opening him up or doing your beefy damage....