Question - Heavy Weapons General Safety and Mix-up Info

[UPR_Nova]

I am trying to make the switch to Heavy Weapons now that I have the core gameplay mechanics started up pretty nicely with Jax. There are a couple of questions that I would like to ask the HW players because I can't seem to piece together this information on my own. First, is it even possible to cancel all of his strings into armor? I ask this because I have only successfully cancelled standing 4 LAW cancel into EX OH Dash Punch. I wanted to make sure that I am on the right track and not just struggling with my cancels. I can't get any other string to get the DP out after the cancel before I am punished by the AI on reversal.

Second, I'm assuming the meta revolves around the respect the opponent shows related to my ability to block after a LAW cancel. For example, will my opponent immediately poke or armor as soon as he/she sees a cancel come on the screen? If so, block after the cancel, then go into pressure/punish of your choice. I have found one that I feel to be the optimal punish for this circumstance: f21 xx EX OH DP starter when you have caught them trying to armor and block it. Considering you have already used a cancel previous to the block, you need to limit the stamina usage during the punish or it will inevitably drop due to no run juice.

Finally, I'm also assuming liberal use of Gotcha Grab on block, right? I am used to throwing that sparingly with Pumped Up now that I have been getting punished for it but I see with the -4 info in the move list that it could be great to make virtually everything safe, barring gaps and poor cancels. I'm assuming your hole in that case would be the fact that an opponent could read that it's coming, duck and punish but that seems hella risky considering you could eat 40% at any time vs Jax.

Any input will greatly be appreciated. I just want to confirm that I am on the right track with his usage because I am drawn to the safety of the character over Pumped Up. Thanks ahead!

 

[thlityoursloat]

I'm not a Jax player but I'd rather not use Gotcha too much because it ends your pressure. I'd rather stagger, aren't most of black pink shit man's strings safe anyways?

 

[UPR_Nova]

I'm not a Jax player but I'd rather not use Gotcha too much because it ends your pressure. I'd rather stagger, aren't most of black pink shit man's strings safe anyways?

Yeah I'm saying other than stagger. And you can't really live on staggers, added to the fact that GG is a safe option to catch button presses instead of unsafe OH DP. But you don't play Jax soooo lol...not trying to be an ass but I'm kinda only interested in the opinions of Jax mains. Thank you for your input though but I just don't think it was related to what I was referencing with my question. Maybe I have a poorly worded question.

 

[EmperorP]

U cn poke right after the gg grab just mix them from wht I have noticed most of the opponents lyk blocking while standing against jax so I would suggest ending your block string with a straight dash panch since the can't Spanish it from there continue your mind games

 

[UPR_Nova]

U cn poke right after the gg grab just mix them from wht I have noticed most of the opponents lyk blocking while standing against jax so I would suggest ending your block string with a straight dash panch since the can't Spanish it from there continue your mind games

Dude.... GG is -4 meaning a standing 1 comes out in 10 frames with perfect execution. My only option is to block or attempt armor if I read a slow attack. Who are you poking after a blocked GG so I can play them?

 

[UPR_Nova]

I'm gonna tag a couple of people that I know in the Jax forums. Forgive me if I didn't tag you, nothing personal.

@Undergroundepict
@Undeadjim
@Kingshootahz
@Anyone else that can chime in and knows what they are talking about and main the character or at least play him at a decentlyhihg enough level to understand what I'm saying above and not looking for the basics but the actual core of the HW variation and meta and can tell me if Im on the right track or way off....please

 

[Undeadjim]

First, is it even possible to cancel all of his strings into armor? I ask this because I have only successfully cancelled standing 4 LAW cancel into EX OH Dash Punch. I wanted to make sure that I am on the right track and not just struggling with my cancels. I can't get any other string to get the DP out after the cancel before I am punished by the AI on reversal.

(Are you asking if the cancels are plus? stand 4 is around plus 15 and the rest are varying degrees of negative)

Second, I'm assuming the meta revolves around the respect the opponent shows related to my ability to block after a LAW cancel. For example, will my opponent immediately poke or armor as soon as he/she sees a cancel come on the screen? If so, block after the cancel, then go into pressure/punish of your choice. I have found one that I feel to be the optimal punish for this circumstance: f21 xx EX OH DP starter when you have caught them trying to armor and block it. Considering you have already used a cancel previous to the block, you need to limit the stamina usage during the punish or it will inevitably drop due to no run juice.

(This is fine, mix cancels with blocking/GG/and levels of disrespect based on reads.)

Finally, I'm also assuming liberal use of Gotcha Grab on block, right? I am used to throwing that sparingly with Pumped Up now that I have been getting punished for it but I see with the -4 info in the move list that it could be great to make virtually everything safe, barring gaps and poor cancels. I'm assuming your hole in that case would be the fact that an opponent could read that it's coming, duck and punish but that seems hella risky considering you could eat 40% at any time vs Jax.

(GG jails from a bunch of stuff, F21, 11, 123 ...... the list goes on and on. Putting this at the end of where you're run canceling is a good way of catching people ready to try and counter you with a string poke etc.)

Dude.... GG is -4 meaning a standing 1 comes out in 10 frames with perfect execution. My only option is to block or attempt armor if I read a slow attack. Who are you poking after a blocked GG so I can play them?

(Depending on what character you're playing against they might not have any mids fast enough, or have mids you don't mind blocking. Against Tremor for example I can do GG on block then D1 all his mids, so even after a GG I can create a situation where the Tremor player puts himself into negative frames again by trying to counterpoke. KL has to F2 which either ends there or after F2 hat putting him negative. Cassie B12 negative etc etc. Not to mention EX GG is a safe [Although you can neutral duck] 9 frame armor they have to worry about. If you condition your opponent enough you can GG on block be -4 then do a 18 frame overhead and see it hit.)[/QUOTE]

 

[Odyessus]

1. Your able to cancel into any armor move you want after a LAW cancel. I've gone into ex gotcha before I believe. Maybe I've reading the question wrong though.

2. F21 gives optimal damage but F3 EX Overhead dash punch is faster. Amd yes the meta revolves around opponent respecting the ability to block. (I'll constantly 123,RC, Block poke, go back into pressure. Something that I find very nice and constantly do is 123RC,(opponent does nothing) and I go into a free mixup. They face a b2, b3, 12ODP, 123ODP or throw.

3.As for the gotcha grab it does make everything safe beware of combos with gaps though i.e. f2, 23 can be blown up by armor. Opponenet will eventually adjust to the high gotch grab and duck poke into pressure though.

You probably already know from using jax though the best move in his arsenal is f21 though.

And the only move jax is plus on after LAW cancel is 4. Leaves you plus 12 probably higher.

 

[Kingshootahz]

Leaves you plus 12 probably higher.

It's not that high I think 7 -10 I think but my execution has been rather off and I can only play online now due to my only close local dead.

 

[Undeadjim]

Stand 4 is at least plus 15 because I've done a small RC and jailed a F2 which is 13 frames.

 

[UPR_Nova]

Thank you so much! So I'm on the right track, just nowhere near the execution.

Concerning the LAW cancel into armor, an example reversal armor attack from the opponent would be Scorpions slide. I am having trouble with any string or normal (excluding standing 4 which I've gathered is ridiculously plus on block) into LAW cancel into EX OH DP. I get caught by the reversal before my armor even starts up. That is essentially my question revolving around the cancels into armor.

Amd yes the meta revolves around opponent respecting the ability to block. (I'll constantly 123,RC, Block poke, go back into pressure. Something that I find very nice and constantly do is 123RC,(opponent does nothing) and I go into a free mixup. They face a b2, b3, 12ODP, 123ODP or throw.

Thank you for that statement. I was thinking that I was playing too passive by attempting to block but it's obvious that people I have played when my cancels are crispy just don't know they can press after I cancel. It leads me to sit there, staring like an idiot then I get pressured. I need to get b3 and b2 into my game a LOT more.

 

[Undeadjim]

Concerning the LAW cancel into armor, an example reversal armor attack from the opponent would be Scorpions slide. I am having trouble with any string or normal (excluding standing 4 which I've gathered is ridiculously plus on block) into LAW cancel into EX OH DP. I get caught by the reversal before my armor even starts up. That is essentially my question revolving around the cancels into armor.

Do you mean RC on block into armor? This is possible however just difficult given you're negative depending on how well you perform the cancel then your execution in the small amount of frames their reversal allows you to input.

My question is why would you need to RC on blocking into an EX overhead punch?

 

[UPR_Nova]

(Depending on what character you're playing against they might not have any mids fast enough, or have mids you don't mind blocking. Against Tremor for example I can do GG on block then D1 all his mids, so even after a GG I can create a situation where the Tremor player puts himself into negative frames again by trying to counterpoke. KL has to F2 which either ends there or after F2 hat putting him negative. Cassie B12 negative etc etc. Not to mention EX GG is a safe [Although you can neutral duck] 9 frame armor they have to worry about. If you condition your opponent enough you can GG on block be -4 then do a 18 frame overhead and see it hit.)

I feel ridiculously threatened and unsafe by attempting that. Guess I need to make better decisions based upon opponent tendencies and character knowledge. Obviously, I haven't done my homework, therefore, C- to me and A+ for @EmperorP if that's what you were talking about above.

 

[UPR_Nova]

Do you mean RC on block into armor? This is possible however just difficult given you're negative depending on how well you perform the cancel then your execution in the small amount of frames their reversal allows you to input.

My question is why would you need to RC on blocking into an EX overhead punch?

Just a thought really. If I read a button press, cancel into EX OH DP for full combo. Probably impractical by the way you responded.

 

[Undeadjim]

Just a thought really. If I read a button press, cancel into EX OH DP for full combo. Probably impractical by the way you responded.

It's not impractical at all just something that is more risky than say RC on block into EX GG you're safer on block and will trade with most armor and be able to punish afterwards given EX GG recovers quick on trade. If you're going to commit into a EX overhead dash read from a string the best thing to do is do 12 EX overhead or 123 if you need to do it for a comeback.

 

[UPR_Nova]

It's not impractical at all just something that is more risky than say RC on block into EX GG you're safer on block and will trade with most armor and be able to punish afterwards given EX GG recovers quick on trade. If you're going to commit into a EX overhead dash read from a string the best thing to do is do 12 EX overhead or 123 if you need to do it for a comeback.

OK, that makes sense. In a way, the trade causes GG to continue through the animation, recovering quicker than the opponents armored reversal leaving time for a 123 starter into full combo. Dirty. I was on that simple level.

 

[Kingshootahz]

I hope OP isn't trying to do all this tech online but let me add that RC on block into Ex DDP is not a good risk to take because of the lack of a confirm but I guess you mean doing it after a read or is this answered already?

 

[Odyessus]

Also note you get a free hit confirm off of b2. When b2 hits you can rocket cancel into full combo and when it's blocked nothing happens. I actually find this annoying but it's s safe option.

 

[Vigilante24]

So when are people gonna start using law cancel backdashes to bait some stuff, reset to neutral, and mess with peoples minds even more?

^Why cancel B2 into rocket when nothing comes out on block? I personally just input OH Punch automatically.

 

[UPR_Nova]

I hope OP isn't trying to do all this tech online but let me add that RC on block into Ex DDP is not a good risk to take because of the lack of a confirm but I guess you mean doing it after a read or is this answered already?

Yeah, it was answered but thanks for replying anyway. And my practice ground is online right now unfortunately, at least until things shape up with my scene. I plan on taking this to tournaments though. This stuff online is damn near impossible but I'm thinking if I can get the majority of it down online, then offline will be a breeze.

 

[UPR_Nova]

So when are people gonna start using law cancel backdashes to bait some stuff, reset to neutral, and mess with peoples minds even more?

^Why cancel B2 into rocket when nothing comes out on block? I personally just input OH Punch automatically.

LAW cancel, backdash, punish whiffed buttons or at worst, start pressure. Could be ridiculous in the corner. Only disadvantage I see midscreen is that run juice. You would have to confirm into something like f21 xx LAW RC, 3b2, so on and so forth. Wait, will that work? I thought the maximum number of cancels you could get on block is 2, so with half of a bar gone, you couldn't even punish like what I stated above, right?

I'm about to lab that option right quick!

 

[Odyessus]

So when are people gonna start using law cancel backdashes to bait some stuff, reset to neutral, and mess with peoples minds even more?

^Why cancel B2 into rocket when nothing comes out on block? I personally just input OH Punch automatically.

More damage. If b2 lands you can RC, 123,exODP, run cancel f21, 11, f212d4+3.

 

[Undeadjim]

So when are people gonna start using law cancel backdashes to bait some stuff, reset to neutral, and mess with peoples minds even more?

^Why cancel B2 into rocket when nothing comes out on block? I personally just input OH Punch automatically.

Well I wouldn't really backdash because I can bait everything I want with a RC block, chances are if i'm in with Jax i'm in a better position than my opponent and I want to stay in.

B2 RC builds a little more meter at the cost of difference personal preference on this.

More damage. If b2 lands you can RC, 123,exODP, run cancel f21, 11, f212d4+3.

It actually does less in a lot of circumstances when you RC 123. Normally 1-2%

 

[Odyessus]

LAW cancel, backdash, punish whiffed buttons or at worst, start pressure. Could be ridiculous in the corner. Only disadvantage I see midscreen is that run juice. You would have to confirm into something like f21 xx LAW RC, 3b2, so on and so forth. Wait, will that work? I thought the maximum number of cancels you could get on block is 2, so with half of a bar gone, you couldn't even punish like what I stated above, right?

I'm about to lab that option right quick!

Yeah you can only get 2 cancels. Off a law back dash cancel you can whiff punish with f3 though and still have stamina to combo off a exOHDP.

I usually get hit trying to law back dash cancel though because Jax is negative and his back dash isn't the fastest.

 

[UPR_Nova]

Well I wouldn't really backdash because I can bait everything I want with a RC block, chances are if i'm in with Jax i'm in a better position than my opponent and I want to stay in.

It's a great point. I don't see any advantage in doing this because of the quote above. I did a really quick lab with it and the stamina usage is so tight. If you want a punish out of a whiffed move, you have to hesitate for a brief moment in order to have the timing PERFECT for proper run juice rebuild. It's possible but when the max I'm getting midscreen is 27% off f3 run cancel into 3b2, I don't see the value. You might be able to get more off f21 into 3b2 but I didn't try because the link is tight, if even possible. I would rather block and punish hard with something around 38% or 42% going into the corner.