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Discussion in 'Strategy Zone' started by Prinz, Mar 29, 2012.
...mean there are 7-3's and higher in this game?
No people just love watching kabal vs jax 40 times in one tournament.
Everyone is going to have a pocket Jax against Kabal. lol.
Counter picking is going to lead to seeing a lot of Kabal/Jax/Cage as each counter the other in some way, because it seems that Kabal beats Cage, but Cage beats Jax, but Jax beats Kabal.
It's like a classic rock/paper/scissor scenario.
I understand why counter-picking is done and with the kind of money MLG is putting up, who could blame anyone, but isn't that going to lead to players being lazy and rather than levelling up their mains, are going to have all these lame "pocket" characters. Already I keep seeing "im picking this guy up to counter these characters" and so on.
As a CSZ player the match up with Kitana is really, really hard. Does this mean I should now start playing Kenshi or improve on my CSZ?
EDIT: Nice thread OP, are there 7-3 match ups no one wants to admit, or are a lot of players just not up to scratch?
...which then leads to people picking up Cage for Jax? The whole thing is going to get ridiculous if people will start resorting to this.
It could mean we're all wrong about the MU charts. It could mean most of us don't have access to good competition enough to have serious MU experience so counter picking is an easier solution.
I do think people may be following the elite players and getting ahead of themselves though. Guys like CD Jr and REO play each other all the time and are at a higher level than almost anyone else. To them a MU being 6-4 means more than it does to us.
Casuals are a good time to work out your bad match ups. Tournaments are where you do what it takes to win.
I understand, but is a 6-4 worth counterpicking? Because if it isn't, than counterpicks are at least 7-3's.
REO vs Curbo was a good example of this topic.
REO was 2-0 up against Curbos Cage using his Kabal. Curbo switches to Jax, pulls it back 2-1. REO goes for Cage, and somehow Curbo wins again. This could be due to the fact that Curbos Cage is miles better than REO's, so he knows what he can and cant get away with, but ultimately REO sticks with Cage and grinds out a 3-2 victory.
So was it the player or the character that was better in their encounter?
I totally agree with the example above. I was thinking of bringing it up My take is that Curbo could've won, he was playing the right Jax vs Cage. Maybe his Jax wasn't prepared. But the wagon of counterpicking that started after MLG makes me question the community which says there are no 7-3's, yet they counterpick, which says it's the player yet they say on stream "I will never fight Jax against Cage cause I'm affraid of him". There are either 7-3's in this game, or you're a bad player, so which is it?
6-4's aren't worth counter-picking imo. But also people have their own troublesome match-ups that might not necessarily reflect in the score line. I, for example, cannot for the life of me defeat Liu Kang with Sub Zero for some fucked up reason so I end up picking Sektor. This is not a bad match-up so I should work on it with Sub Zero in order to make it advantage in my favour (I believe it is 6-4 Sub). 16 Bit makes a good point about experience. Once everyone has real MU experience then counterpicking will be less frequent and there will be less reliance on match-up numbers. You just try to find ways around match-ups and remember these matches are player specific as well. Preparing for Kitana is one thing. Preparing for a rushdown heavy Kitana like CD or preparing for a 16 Bit zoning type Kitana is another issue altogether. You should have a pocket character though in the event of a truly tough match-up (borderline unfair). I play with 5 characters though because I just love too many .
Well their encounter has completely opened up a can of worms.
Not to take anything away from REO or his accomplishments, but I felt that Curbo was probably the slightly better player despite losing 3-2 and when Curbo drew level REO honestly looked like he didn't know what to do next, till team VsM convinced him to stick with Cage.
I'm a little bit surprised Curbo didn't bring out Sonya because even though Jax has, apparantly, a better match up against Kabal than she does, surely Sonya is a 5:5 with Kabal at the least, and is she not better than Cage in a 1 v 1?
Like you said, Curbo played the right Jax against his Cage to draw level, which shows that it's not entirely impossible, so maybe there are only 6-4's but then look at the Kabal vs Cage match up....I dont think Cage got in once.
8-2's is probably a bit excessive, but 7-3's probably exist. You can't tell me that CSZ vs Kitana or Kitana vs Kenshi aren't 3-7's.
I like this because while CSZ is my main guy, I also play with about 5 or 6 characters but that's because I like them, not because I need to use these guys for certain match ups. As Kano is one of my others I do admit that while my CSZ is stronger than my Kano, my Kano does so much better against Kitana than CSZ does.
That said, I personally find Cage and Reptile hard to beat, no matter who I use.
exactly there is nothing nicer than winning with characters you WANT to play. Nightwolf certainly is not a counter pick for anybody and I love Sektor from previous games as well as Kenshi. I only play Cage because I felt comfortable with him in this game. Don't think I'll ever use him again though lol. I do counterpick among the characters that I have chosen though if need be. Yeah Kano is better for Kitana. I really wish I could play your Quan Chi and your CSZ! Shame they were still locked. Kano vs Sub is never a good match haha...
In my opinion there are 7-3's to an extent, like Kabal-Cage when Cage is outside jip distance.
12 Gauge said he'd have a copy of komplete edition so with a bit of luck we can get a CSZ vs Subby match going the next time you're over, as I felt my "kano showing" didn't do me enough justice
I have to admit for awhile I convinced myself that Kano vs Sub is not the bad...but it is and you kinda confirmed that for me at the last casuals
I agree. I think there probably are a few 7:3's. Not that many, but a few characters have exceptionally hard match ups.
Cage vs Kabal, CSZ vs Kitana and Kitana vs Kenshi are three I can think of, off the top of my head.
I'd say there is at least 1-2 7-3 match ups in the game, but you can't really use REO vs. CDjr as an example. They just know each other so well.
Haha and then you tried to outzone me with Baraka lmao! Also for the record I thought you tried to play too aggressively which is why I beat you like I did. Kano loses this match but I have lamed out Subs in the past with Kano so perhaps that is possible. Just watch out for backing yourself into the corner. Anyways I guess I'll see ya in two months lol. Hopefully PND really grows by the time I return.
Yeah, im a super aggressive player and a bit too much so as I don't bait out nowhere near enough to capitalise on situations. It's why im getting ruined by the rise of Kenshi players lately also.
I actually asked this exact thing in another topic. If these match-ups aren't over 6-4, I really don't see why counter picking was as prevalent as it was in MLG. I rarely see tournaments where people instantly counter-pick a 6-4 match-up. Was it like this at FR?
If counterpicking is indeed necessary, then there are a lot of 7-3s.
Because a 6-4 is disadvantage, but not downright awful. There's an edge, but it's not going to guarantee a win.
I really do think eventually counterpicking will dwindle as players get more used to tough matchups. I still haven't played a matchup that I've felt I needed to counterpick, not even CDjr or REO make me want to counterpick...they just make me want to get better lmao.
Part of it also may be that MLG was best 3 out of 5 rather than the traditional best 2 out of 3. For a 6-4 matchup you may feel confident you can win 2 games, but 3 may be the point where you're just like, "man, fuck this, I'm switching to Cage".
There are several match ups in this game where the community is totally split on the numbers, so that indicates either: People have diff. strats for playing a character, the other person found bigger holes in a bad match up to make it more even, someone doesn't know the match up as well etc.
I don't personally think there are any match ups below 7-3 and I'm very skeptical about 7-3 as well, I think at worst we have a lot of 6-4 matches, which is okay because they're definitely winnable with enough dedication and outplaying your opponent.
I played a bunch of characters originally about 2o members of the cast, not to counterpick, but because I really like them and it's fun to mix it up, but I finally settled on like 4-5 characters (with a primary focus on 3 of them).
My characters I use primarily now, do not cover my bad match ups, my top 2 characters being Stryker and Jade, I actually think Stryker's worst match up is a 6-4 as well, he's well rounded enough to compete with entire roster, he goes even with most characters and loses (barely) to some. Jade has less good match ups, but I still think she can compete.
I can't play characters I don't care about just to tip the scale, I'd rather learn ways around these bad match ups and make them as even as possible.
Words of wisdom, my friend...
Flagg go to an offline tournament and play a reptile...you will feel better about his dash. If I hadn't have played casuals before mlg I would have left after losing 0-2. No lag at all forces you to take so many less chances. I got exponentially better just by playing some really good guys who know how to blow my reptile up after blocking a dash. That's the reason I did as well as I did.
Oh and as a fellow csz player, kitana dies blow up csz 7-3. If there is any match up that's 8-2...it may be this one haha
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