Did Ed just confirm Sheeva?

[Pterodactyl]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here, but this task is definitely easier than creating new characters, and as far as I can tell, NRS are doing just fine with the latter.

Yes, you are right, fixing old characters is definitely easier than trying to make new ones.

I hope they do both.

This is coming from the same website that demonizes and makes fun of characters like Hsu Hao, Dairou, Kobra, Darrius, etc. Don't you think those characters have potential too? Kappa. And don't act like Jax being black isn't a selling point. If race, creed, gender, etc. weren't truly a selling point, then noone would say they identify with Black Panther or Static, Cyborg wouldn't be on the J League, and the new Ms. Marvel wouldn't be as popular if she weren't a Muslim. So yes, Jax being black DOES matter to people, and is a selling point to the character.

And what are you talking about? Scorpion is practically THE EXACT same guy he was : a vengeful dude full of hate spouting get over here tossing spears and slicing heads. Literally nothing has changed bar his appearance, which is still iconic and still yellow and still has a mask.
I severely hope Sheeva isn't in the game. And yes, Sheeva's whole schtick was a female Goro, whose already in the game.



AND that's where the variation system comes in. This is a case of just because you can doesn't mean you should. Imagine if this game had Cassie Cage, Sonya, Stryker, all in this game. Sure, they could all be different like Stryker could use an M9 beretta and cassie could use a M1911 or something, but why would you do that when you can expand to other characters in the game. Now I think Stryker is a complete fucking badass in a kind of campy sort of way : he doesn't fit into the situation AT ALL and seems ill equipped to take on sorcerers and demons and shit armed with a pistol, taser and some grenades, yet still handles business, but I can completely empathize why people wouldn't want him in this game. I hope Sheeva isn't in this game. Her main selling point is a female Goro, and we already have Goro playable, so she becomes moot to me imo.

First of all what is or isn't a selling point is up to the consumer because the choice lies within their hands. Some people like Jax because he's black, some because he has big metal robot arms, others like him for possibly other reasons, everyone is different.

Second of all you're thinking small, why do you assume all that can be done to make a character different from another is change one thing like a gun type?

Again, Liu Kang and Kung Lao(and Sonya with Jax) have almost literally the same story and background yet are completely different.

Fuck the idea that characters who look similar and are from the same background can't be and play completely differently.

 

[seniorcuddlebuns]

Yes, you are right, fixing old characters is definitely easier than trying to make new ones.

I hope they do both.



You're thinking small, why do you assume all that can be done to make a character different from another is change one thing like a gun type?

Again, Liu Kang and Kung Lao(and Sonya with Jax) have almost literally the same story and background yet are completely different.

Fuck the idea that characters who look similar and are from the same background can't be and play completely differently.

I never said they couldn't make them different, I'm saying its a case of why should you. I can probably think of dozens of ways you could use electrical powers, but that doesn't mean I want 20 raidens. I can think of many ways to use chi powers, but that doesn't mean I want 20 shaolin monks running around.

Hell, the gl power ring you could use infinite ways, but do I want kyle Rayner, guy Gardner, hal, john, and kilowog all as different characters in injustice? No.

In injustice, batgirl played insanely different from batman and dick and I acknowledge that. But thematically, they're the same even though they have different personalities, dark color palette, tech and martial arts based heroes. But we got batgirl instead of more interesting characters like blue beetle, dead man, Frankenstein, atrocious, clay face, etc.

And no, Kobra, Hsu Hao, Jarek, etc had no redeeming qualities. If they did, no one here would say they were shitty characters.

It's all about pushing designs to be different. I'm not looking at them from their potential kits and playstyles, but also thematically and aesthetically. If the only identifiable quality of a character at first glance is that they're a female version of something else, I'm not gonna have much faith in it.

 

[Barrogh]

I never said they couldn't make them different, I'm saying its a case of why should you. I can probably think of dozens of ways you could use electrical powers, but that doesn't mean I want 20 raidens. I can think of many ways to use chi powers, but that doesn't mean I want 20 shaolin monks running around.

Hell, the gl power ring you could use infinite ways, but do I want kyle Rayner, guy Gardner, hal, john, and kilowog all as different characters in injustice? No.

And yet, we do have 2 vastly different monks in MK9, 2 different ring users and 2 kryptonians in IGAU, and not that I see people complaining about that. Sometimes it's nice to have characters that can relate to each other more than to the rest, although they should indeed offer different gameplay, it's a FG after all.

Now, in order for Sheeva to happen we need her style to be distinctive from Goro's, which is indeed tricky now that we have variations. It would require re-inventing the character entirely. It's a good question if it's a good idea. But fluff-wise, there's nothing too bad about having them both.

Speaking of BG, there were more reasons for people to dislike her. She was from overused batgallery in a game that could combine more sub-franchises, she didn't have anything unique or interesting about her gameplay, she was powerful in annoying way. There's just plenty of wrong with this inclusion in a game that did much better jobs at creating counterparts (GL-Sinestro, Supes-Zod to name a few).

 

[seniorcuddlebuns]

And yet, we do have 2 vastly different monks in MK9, 2 different ring users and 2 kryptonians in IGAU, and not that I see people complaining about that. Sometimes it's nice to have characters that can relate to each other more than to the rest, although they should indeed offer different gameplay, it's a FG after all.

Now, in order for Sheeva to happen we need her style to be distinctive from Goro's, which is indeed tricky now that we have variations. It would require re-inventing the character entirely. It's a good question if it's a good idea. But fluff-wise, there's nothing too bad about having them both.

Speaking of BG, there were more reasons for people to dislike her. She was from overused batgallery in a game that could combine more sub-franchises, she didn't have anything unique or interesting about her gameplay, she was powerful in annoying way. There's just plenty of wrong with this inclusion in a game that did much better jobs at creating counterparts (GL-Sinestro, Supes-Zod to name a few).

Buh buh buh...But they made Batgirl different from Batman! Why would they complain about her? She had different gameplay and unique moves! She's so different from Batman and the rest of the bat characters! And technically, the game could be 80 percent batman characters and 20 percent everything else and still technically be a DC game. You can't argue that Sheeva can be unique yet say Batgirl isn't when she played differently. The problem was was that she was thematically similar to Batman.

Also, if you say they have to entirely retool the character in order to make her unique, don't you think that makes the character boring and not worth including?

For the case of Kung Lao and Liu Kang, it goes beyond them being shoalin monks. If I were to pitch a character design, Kung Lao is a shaolin monk who has a razor sharp hat that he can throw around and use like oddjob to decapitate people. While Liu Kang is a bruce lee archetype who is valiant and stands for honour. If I were pitching Sheeva, she's a female version of Goro who...wait for it! Does everything Goro does, but with boobs! Tada.

 

[BenGmanUk]

I loved playing as Sheeva when I fancied a bit of fun. She would have been a lot better with faster normals and a low grab that actually worked properly. Dat win pose. Mmmmmmmmmm....

 

[STRYKIE]

The thing is, the only games she has returned for, were pretty much by default. MK9 made a policy of bringing back every MK3 character, and MKA made a policy of bringing back every character under the sun.

NRS are already treading on thin ice with the mass market by having (arguably) the most unfamiliar character roster in an MK game to date, and I highly doubt they will be taking their chances on her.

 

[Barrogh]

Buh buh buh...But they made Batgirl different from Batman! Why would they complain about her? She had different gameplay and unique moves!

Yes, and it would be all good except that her gameplay had nothing "unique" (as in: "did you see that mechanics? it's that distinctive FG character Batgirl from IGAU!") about it, she just had bland but very good tools, that's about it. Visually she was just what you called "character X with boobs".

And technically, the game could be 80 percent batman characters and 20 percent everything else and still technically be a DC game.

You cannot get away on technicalities when you are to win hearts of fanbase. DC sub-franchises are distinctive enough, and Gotham bros were beaten to death in media this decade.

You can't argue that Sheeva can be unique yet say Batgirl isn't when she played differently. The problem was was that she was thematically similar to Batman.

I already pointed out thematically similar characters in IGAU and MK that worked. BG just happened to have all the odds stacked against her, design-wise: similar looks, boring gameplan, boring personality, lack of something original in it, power to bash other people's favorites into irrelevancy twice (by "occupying character slot" and by mopping the floor with those who made it into the game before her, making them disappear into even deeper obscurity), and most importantly, she was just boring regardless of Batman and co being in the game. Really, similarities with other members of batfamily were forgivable when you look at other negative traits of her.

Also, if you say they have to entirely retool the character in order to make her unique, don't you think that makes the character boring and not worth including?

I said exactly that in my previous post, she probably won't be included if left as she is. On the other hand, overhauled characters are not impossible, she just needs a new shtick.

For the case of Kung Lao and Liu Kang, it goes beyond them being shoalin monks. If I were to pitch a character design, Kung Lao is a shaolin monk who has a razor sharp hat that he can throw around and use like oddjob to decapitate people. While Liu Kang is a bruce lee archetype who is valiant and stands for honour. If I were pitching Sheeva, she's a female version of Goro who...wait for it! Does everything Goro does, but with boobs! Tada.

That's what, again, I was talking about. She cannot be in if she remains just Goro with boobs. NRS managed to create very different monk, they can as well create different shokan, making entire species less one-dimensional in the process, which is IMO important if NRS are going to expand upon MK cosmology. The thing is, if this another shokan really needs to be Sheeva?

+ People are used to thought that she exists, she even has a few fans. She's recognizable and will have to go through less pains to be accepted than new character will have to.
- She isn't popular; this has a lot to do with her not being distinctive enough and some other things that can be seen as flaws, which can be repaired, but some damage is already done and some people are actively opposed to seeing her again.

+ She can finally be made into what fluff says she is, which, if done well enough, can be decent character and important figure in what appears to be major theme of MKX - power struggle in Outworld.
- Not much people are interested in her fluff as this point, see above.

+ Some people like to see familiar characters from unexpected angles, reboot can make that happen. Good that Sheeva has a lot of blanks in her character to fill to make that plausible.
- Other people don't like seeing characters going through major changes when they can't follow the development, they may feel taste of retcons they may have a dislike for.

The problem is that MKX have to choose characters carefully seeing how it needs to pick from huge pile of different people's favorites, and then introduce some new ones. Remastering a character in a game that mostly tries to stay true to tradition (which is perhaps the strongest trait of MK involving massive dose of nostalgia) when possible is anything but subtle move.

Personal note: would have Sheeva over Goro anyday, but Goro is confirmed, so...

 

[seniorcuddlebuns]

I find people are very adverse to change if it doesn't work upon the infrastructure already in place. Like when DC retconned Wally West into being black. So I don't find a point in trying to fix a character so banal and boring like Sheeva to the point where you have to extremely rework the character. And people are already very accepting of new characters it seems ie Kotal Kahn, Cassie, etc. And with Goro confirmed, that sort of niche Sheeva has filled will be severely overlapped by Goro. They do similar things and have done similar things in previous games : grabs, high damage, brutal slams and hits, fireballs, telestomp, etc. And with the variations in place it'll be even harder to make sheeva unique but still be a four armed female shokan. It'd be like trying to have Sonya in the game and feel different than Cassie since Cassie already has the military theme, cartwheels, seemingly rush down oriented styles. So I find if they included Sheeva and eschew other characters that I feel would provide a broader scope of power archetypes, I'd be pretty opposed to that.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Hope shes in