Strategy D1 (EX) Dagger

[ryublaze]

What are you guys' thoughts on D1 EX Dagger to get out of pressure? I didn't like it before but now that I think about it it could be useful against Johnny Cage cuz he can bait EX Red Dash. Kinda similar to Scorpioin and d1, spear except with Skarlet you'll be at advantage if it's blocked so you can reverse pressure. If the opponent ducks though then you'll waste meter. Not to say that this should replace d1,red dash slide or d3 to get out of pressure, but with d1 ex dagger you'll be getting a blockstring.

Next I want to talk about using non-enhanced EX Dagger. Basically you D1 Dagger Toss to get out of pressure, but you hold the dagger and see if the 1st dagger hit or if it's blocked. If it hits, dash cancel forward into blockstring. If it's blocked, either throw the 2nd dagger to hit them if they try to do anything after blocking the 1st dagger, or dash cancel backwards to get away. The thing about this is that dagger toss is negative on block but only -7 and with pushback.

Video of how it should look: (I don't have another person to be player 2 to pressure me)

 

[ryublaze]

Added video. No one has any thoughts on this?

 

[GuamoKun]

Neat. I didn't know the first hit of ex-dagger hit crouch blocking sometimes....

it is a bit risky considering that it could be neutral crouched or avoided completely if you hit a crouching opponent

but in theory it should function like Kitana's d1-cutter and catch mash-happy opponents.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I like the idea of force a standing block after a D1, interesting, good to jail some shit up.
Or to reverse pressure from counter poking wars

 

[AssassiN]

I kinda like it, I was thinking about this months ago but I thought it was just to dangerous. One D4 and you're at his mercy.
I was thinking it with D3 though and a little bit further, was experimenting with F4 as well but it just kinda didn't go anywhere.

I do have another (crazy) idea that I'll post in private with the Skarlet mains with some other gimmicks, just to help you guys out at majors and Evo .

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

d1 ex dagger is still interruptible at the cost of a bar of meter...a guy like dizzy, pig, or 16bit will interrupt it EVERY TIME.

The better solution is d1 armor dash...I'll just leave it at this for you to ponder the options.

 

[ryublaze]

d1 ex dagger is still interruptible at the cost of a bar of meter...a guy like dizzy, pig, or 16bit will interrupt it EVERY TIME.

The better solution is d1 armor dash...I'll just leave it at this for you to ponder the options.

Ok but if scorpion's d1 spear works (sometimes) then how come this doesn't? I know it's interruptable but I don't think it's that easy especially if the opponent is on the offense. If you armor dash the opponent can still block in time if he counterpokes and armor dash is easier to react to than d1 ex dagger, but if I'm going to d1 ex red dash then I might as well take out the d1.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Ok but if scorpion's d1 spear works (sometimes) then how come this doesn't? I know it's interruptable but I don't think it's that easy especially if the opponent is on the offense. If you armor dash the opponent can still block in time if he counterpokes and armor dash is easier to react to than d1 ex dagger, but if I'm going to d1 ex red dash then I might as well take out the d1.

It will work sometimes, but d1 eh rd is still better for reversing pressure, and is less risky.

 

[ryublaze]

It will work sometimes, but d1 eh rd is still better for reversing pressure, and is less risky.

But with armored red dash, you also run the risk of being comboed if you decide to empty dash, and the option for ex down slash would require another bar of meter and that and up slash are is still risky. D1 ex dagger would probably just get poked, and full combo would require them to armor out with meter. You're probably right though since you have better experience than me. I've just been playing killa_solid recently though and I'm always afraid to empty red dash cuz he combos me to death.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

When I play pig or others...like wound cowboy or other Atlanta players...ill get poked or comboed after a d1. Or they will neutral crouch and the eh dagger will whiff. Most high level players counter poke with a string and that's when d1 eh red dash is best. You read the down slash or neutral dash or slide but the counter poke with a string can get them killed of you know what your doing.

 

[ryublaze]

When I play pig or others...like wound cowboy or other Atlanta players...ill get poked or comboed after a d1. Or they will neutral crouch and the eh dagger will whiff. Most high level players counter poke with a string and that's when d1 eh red dash is best. You read the down slash or neutral dash or slide but the counter poke with a string can get them killed of you know what your doing.

Yes but we're talking about using D1 ex dagger while you're being pressured and more often than not the D1 will hit. Cancelled into EX Dagger means they can't interrupt with a string and would have to neutral crouch. I mainly brought this up to deal with Cage because Cage can counterpoke with F3 and still be able to block in time after EX Red Dash. Not only that, but D1 EX Dagger also gives you options such as back dash into f4,red dash to beat their poke or f4,3 or jump cancel away or into crossup. I think both d1 ex dagger and d1 ex red dash are both useful but d1 ex dagger is probably less riskier but with less reward.

 

[WaywardStranger]

Yes but we're talking about using D1 ex dagger while you're being pressured and more often than not the D1 will hit. Cancelled into EX Dagger means they can't interrupt with a string and would have to neutral crouch. I mainly brought this up to deal with Cage because Cage can counterpoke with F3 and still be able to block in time after EX Red Dash. Not only that, but D1 EX Dagger also gives you options such as back dash into f4,red dash to beat their poke or f4,3 or jump cancel away or into crossup. I think both d1 ex dagger and d1 ex red dash are both useful but d1 ex dagger is probably less riskier but with less reward.

Why can't a string be used to interrupt d1 ex dagger?

I'm not sure about the numbers but my inclinations are with LOTF. Counter-poking is the name of the meta-game at the highest level. All of the best opponents I've fought in the last few months have been masters of fuzzy guarding and counter-poking.

There are definitely scenarios where this can be useful, pretty tough to turn it into a science though.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Guys pls, we are brothers here lol.

Anyway, any gimmick or strategy its still useful if the player can bend the game to a position where he can use it, there is no point in using such strategy if you're so sure that it will not work, but it would hurt using it if you know it will work when you use it.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

There is a huge gap between the d1 and when the eh dagger "might" connect. It is easier to see than you think. that is all I'm saying.

 

[ryublaze]

Why can't a string be used to interrupt d1 ex dagger?

I'm not sure about the numbers but my inclinations are with LOTF. Counter-poking is the name of the meta-game at the highest level. All of the best opponents I've fought in the last few months have been masters of fuzzy guarding and counter-poking.

There are definitely scenarios where this can be useful, pretty tough to turn it into a science though.

Okay look at the frame data. D1 has +15 cancel advantage on hit, EX Dagger comes out on the 19th frame. There is a 4 frame gap where they can only armor out or duck and poke out, but with a string you are not ducking. I'll even go into training mode and prove this if people don't believe me, but I don't have time at the moment. This is almost the same thing as Scorpion's D1 spear and if anyone's seen Slips play recently, anyone who tries to counterpoke with a string will get speared.

 

[WaywardStranger]

Okay look at the frame data. D1 has +15 cancel advantage on hit, EX Dagger comes out on the 19th frame. There is a 4 frame gap where they can only armor out or duck and poke out, but with a string you are not ducking. I'll even go into training mode and prove this if people don't believe me, but I don't have time at the moment. This is almost the same thing as Scorpion's D1 spear and if anyone's seen Slips play recently, anyone who tries to counterpoke with a string will get speared.

It's dangerous because of what happens when the opponent blocks the d1. I'm pretty sure the numbers allow for a Johnny Cage knee-to-the-face between the d1 and ex dagger. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ryublaze]

It's dangerous because of what happens when the opponent blocks the d1. I'm pretty sure the numbers allow for a Johnny Cage knee-to-the-face between the d1 and ex dagger. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I said if the D1 hits which will most likely happen while being pressured, and if your opponent is just going to stop pressuring and block then go ahead and start a blockstring or throw him.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

What are you guys' thoughts on D1 EX Dagger to get out of pressure?

you asked out thoughts. I personally dont like it very much. It can be useful but I feel d1 eh red dash is better because it allows you more options.

If you dont like it, dont ask.

 

[WaywardStranger]

I said if the D1 hits which will most likely happen while being pressured, and if your opponent is just going to stop pressuring and block then go ahead and start a blockstring or throw him.

I read what you wrote the first time. The best MK9 players are well aware of the places where opponents can poke during his or her pressure strings. It takes a split second to block the D1 and continue pressure. I think you're underestimating how good some guys are at reading their opponents.

Nevertheless, this technique could work against most folks--especially online.

 

[ryublaze]

I read what you wrote the first time. The best MK9 players are well aware of the places where opponents can poke during his or her pressure strings. It takes a split second to block the D1 and continue pressure. I think you're underestimating how good some guys are at reading their opponents.

Nevertheless, this technique could work against most folks--especially online.

Blocking, checking to see if I'm going to d1, unblocking and continuing pressure takes some frames and that's risking getting comboed especially if the Skarlet player is going to start a b1,1,f4 string, or she'll throw you before your string comes out. But okay you don't think I'm good cuz I'm an online player okay whatever lol. I've played some of the best online AND offline, including killa_solid who actually knows how to fight Skarlet. If anything, people underrestimate the online players.

 

[WaywardStranger]

Dude, no one is casting aspersions. Your skills are on display throughout the site, there is no denying your ability. Anyone who can play Skarlet must be a derp at MK9.

This was the best example I could find with a quick search. Watch at 00:36. You can hardly see Rain block the d1. What I'm saying (LOTF too), is that there are opponents who use this tactic to near perfection. TROLLO_THE_CLOWN comes to mind on PSN. That mf is the best I've ever seen at counter-poking with full-comboable strings; it is THE centerpiece of his game. He baits you into poking (out), blocks the poke and continues pressure. Skarlet's only answer is d1~ex red dash in this scenario.

Edit: I don't know who TROLLO_THE_CLOWN is, but I can pretty much guarantee he's a pro. If y'all have the opportunity I highly recommend fighting him. He's the most challenging fight I've had in months.

 

[ryublaze]

Dude, no one is casting aspersions. Your skills are on display throughout the site, there is no denying your ability. Anyone who can play Skarlet must be a derp at MK9.

This was the best example I could find with a quick search. Watch at 00:36. You can hardly see Rain block the d1. What I'm saying (LOTF too), is that there are opponents who use this tactic to near perfection. TROLLO_THE_CLOWN comes to mind on PSN. That mf is the best I've ever seen at counter-poking with full-comboable strings; it is THE centerpiece of his game. He baits you into poking (out), blocks the poke and continues pressure. Skarlet's only answer is d1~ex red dash in this scenario.

But like I said before, if the opponent is going to bait the d1 he's going to have to stop his pressure and block. Skarlet now has the option to start a blockstring, throw, iaDD, or other way pretty much giving her a way out of pressure.

 

[AssassiN]

I fear D1 + EX Dagger is too dangerous.
A tactic that I had in mind involved baiting out punishments/reactions, including D1.
Would only be used against players/characters that actually punish D1 on block, canceling D1 into EX RD would allow you punish any attempts.

I know it sounds crazy and that's why I'm resistant to post stuff like this because it just sounds crazy and stupid.

 

[ryublaze]

I fear D1 + EX Dagger is too dangerous.
A tactic that I had in mind involved baiting out punishments/reactions, including D1.
Would only be used against players/characters that actually punish D1 on block, canceling D1 into EX RD would allow you punish any attempts.

I know it sounds crazy and that's why I'm resistant to post stuff like this because it just sounds crazy and stupid.

How is it dangerous when all you'll be getting is a poke? You guys have to realize that EX RD isn't fullproof either especially when playing against someone who will punish empty red dashes for full combos or will bait EX RD and block or jump out/NJP.

 

[WaywardStranger]

But like I said before, if the opponent is going to bait the d1 he's going to have to stop his pressure and block. Skarlet now has the option to start a blockstring, throw, iaDD, or other way pretty much giving her a way out of pressure.

You're right. But you have to read the situation correctly, very tough t0 do against a high-level Kabal or Lao.

If we are staying on topic, none of the above listed options make d1~ex dagger any more viable.