Curious question about Fighting Games and their popularity

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Some people say that Fighting Games are not popular because they're "too complicated" or "too hard" and you need braindead easy games like CoD to get a big following. But why do MMOs, RTSes and MOBAs have a way bigger following than FGs when they are WAAAAY more complex and have more mechanics than your average FG?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Because they take advantage of PC gaming which is an expanding market. Even though some FGs are on PC they are usually ports and have very small online communities.

 

[SonicFox5000]

Its emphasis on "Some People" that gets me. Thats a broad generalization and is just opinion.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Its emphasis on "Some People" that gets me. Thats a broad generalization and is just opinion.

You're right, poor wording aside, the numbers speak for themselves. Just look at viewer counts on streams. USF4, who gets the biggest entrants in EVO, can crack at most 4k viewers on a regular day. NRS streams even struggle to get that during tournies. Yet look at League, getting constant 50k+ every day. I can't even imagine how many viewers they get when they have a big event.

 

[SonicFox5000]

You're right, poor wording aside, the numbers speak for themselves. Just look at viewer counts on streams. USF4, who gets the biggest entrants in EVO, can crack at most 4k viewers on a regular day. NRS streams even struggle to get that during tournies. Yet look at League, getting constant 50k+ every day. I can't even imagine how many viewers they get when they have a big event.

its not so much of a complex thing, its more of a pc has bigger community type thing

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

I don't really watch RTSs or MOBAs so I could be off base....but In my opinion it has less to do with the "complexity" or perceived difficulty of the game and more to do with the ability to appreciate and understand what's actually happening at a high level from a spectators point of view.

That's not to say that MOBAs or RTSs are easy to understand necessarily, but from a spectator perspective I think its easier to appreciate the skill, organization, and teamwork because those things are more clearly displayed.
On the flipside; with fighting games I almost think that unless you have played at least one fighting game at a high level, about 2/3rds or so of what is actually happening on the screen is likely to be lost on you.

Notice that when most people first start playing/watching fighting games they immediately seem to latch onto combos instinctively? Its because in most peoples minds thats all they can see. Everything else in between combo strings is just noise to them because in their minds nothing is happening unless someone is getting hit. To an extent I blame the games themselves for this mentality actually, because its the one thing most trials/training missions actually seem to focus on.

Edit: To Wit:

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/nov/22/why-i-taught-fighting-games-most-famous-moment-my-college-composition-class/

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I don't really watch RTSs or MOBAs so I could be off base....but In my opinion it has less to do with the "complexity" or perceived difficulty of the game and more to do with the ability to appreciate and understand what's actually happening at a high level from a spectators point of view.

That's not to say that MOBAs or RTSs are easy to understand necessarily, but from a spectator perspective I think its easier to appreciate the skill, organization, and teamwork because those things are more clearly displayed.
On the flipside; with fighting games I almost think that unless you have played at least one fighting game at a high level, about 2/3rds or so of what is actually happening on the screen is likely to be lost on you.

Notice that when most people first start playing/watching fighting games they immediately seem to latch onto combos instinctively? Its because in most peoples minds thats all they can see. Everything else in between combo strings is just noise to them because in their minds nothing is happening unless someone is getting hit. To an extent I blame the games themselves for this mentality actually, because its the one thing most trials/training missions actually seem to focus on.

Edit: To Wit:

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/nov/22/why-i-taught-fighting-games-most-famous-moment-my-college-composition-class/

This makes sense. Although how do you really implement how high-level FG is seen in-game? Would you have an announcer say absolutely everything that's going on?

"YOU'RE IN BLOCKSTUN! BE SURE TO PUNISH UNSAFE MOVES!" I don't see that working.

 

[ScorpionRules!!!92]

I love fighting games, I've been playing them since I was a little kid.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

They're just not as popular it's that simple. Chess is a great game, but you're not going to get as many people watching that as football.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

They're just not as popular it's that simple. Chess is a great game, but you're not going to get as many people watching that as football.

But the question is *why* though.

This makes sense. Although how do you really implement how high-level FG is seen in-game? Would you have an announcer say absolutely everything that's going on?

"YOU'RE IN BLOCKSTUN! BE SURE TO PUNISH UNSAFE MOVES!" I don't see that working.

I'm not 100% sure what the solution is because I don't think its possible to simplify the presentation enough that someone whose unfamiliar with the genre can just start watching it and really understand it....but I do think that the first step really needs to be introducing better and more refined tutorial modes into the games so that at least the people who pick it up casually have a better idea of what's going on.
Extra credits had a really good take on this here:

And another video to look at would be this:

Near the end of the second video he showcases some matches against high ranked players where he only uses the most basic of fundamentals (d.mkxxhadoken, d.HP, neutral jump, etc.) and wins. This is the kind of move/mindset that you really need to stress to new players IMO. They shouldn't even see a combo screen until they can grasp the concept of how to move in the game and how to use their most basic footsie tool.

 

[TopTierHarley]

But the question is *why* though.



I'm not 100% sure what the solution is because I don't think its possible to simplify the presentation enough that someone whose unfamiliar with the genre can just start watching it and really understand it....but I do think that the first step really needs to be introducing better and more refined tutorial modes into the games so that at least the people who pick it up casually have a better idea of what's going on.
Extra credits had a really good take on this here:

And another video to look at would be this:

Near the end of the second video he showcases some matches against high ranked players where he only uses the most basic of fundamentals (d.mkxxhadoken, d.HP, neutral jump, etc.) and wins. This is the kind of move/mindset that you really need to stress to new players IMO. They shouldn't even see a combo screen until they can grasp the concept of how to move in the game and how to use their most basic footsie tool.

Couldnt have said it better

 

[d3v]

Because the genre was, for all intents and purposes, dead during the mid 2000s and only came back to public awareness in 2009. MOBAs, FPS and RTS on the other hand have never really experienced the same kind of decline that fighters did.

Momentum matters. Thanks to the decline, fighting games just didn't have the same kind of momentum as other genres.

The other factor, which also has to do with momentum, is that traditional E-sports and fighting games never did get along in the past. The cultures are just too different. Aside from the arcade roots of the fighting game community, there's also the fact that most people in it are usually poorer, and, for lack of a better term, "from the ghetto". Compare this to PC games which have traditionally white, middle-class players from the suburbs.

Part of this cultural split means that the FGC is both more independent and more wary when it comes to big bugs and corporate sponsorship. Look hoe FGC events are more or less run by the community, while other genres, such as MOBAs has a more centralized structure.

I could go on and on about this, but there's already a well written piece on this by UltraDavid over at our site.
http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/

I don't really watch RTSs or MOBAs so I could be off base....but In my opinion it has less to do with the "complexity" or perceived difficulty of the game and more to do with the ability to appreciate and understand what's actually happening at a high level from a spectators point of view.

That's not to say that MOBAs or RTSs are easy to understand necessarily, but from a spectator perspective I think its easier to appreciate the skill, organization, and teamwork because those things are more clearly displayed.
On the flipside; with fighting games I almost think that unless you have played at least one fighting game at a high level, about 2/3rds or so of what is actually happening on the screen is likely to be lost on you.

FALSE!

Even people within E-sports have come out and stated that fighting games are the most spectator friendly form of video game competition due to a) the relative simplicity of the concept, i.e. it's just to players beating the shit out of each other directly, and b) there's nothing really hidden in it, everything that both the players and spectators need to appreciate it is already presented on screen.

Again, this is discussed briefly in UltraDavid's article.

The esports people at NASL had much stronger respect for fighting games than I expected. In fact, a couple of them even said that fighting games as a genre are more suited than StarCraft for major exposure and professional support. They recognize that fighters are both deep enough strategically for serious tournament play and also simple enough on the surface that anyone can understand the basics of what’s happening. The length of a match is perfectly bite sized, almost like how well football, with its short plays and frequent breaks, is built for television. The action is so exciting and fast paced that it’s hard to get bored, the ratio of whoa to time is just too high.

 

[Skkra]

It's very hard to appreciate what you don't understand.

It's fairly straightforward in football to see an incredibly clever play that rocks a defense and delivers a big touchdown. You see everything happening, and even if you don't understand the particulars, you can watch the play unfold and see that the offense did something very tricky and interesting.

Fighting games, at the highest level, don't have that factor unless you play them. If you don't know a certain frame trap (or even know what that is), you don't understand that it's happening. You'd think it's just someone blocking a close st.MP, for example. And time after time, in the 3/5 set, someone does close st.MP then does nothing afterwards. When they finally, in the last round, land a close CH st.HP right after it, having spent the whole set training their opponent, that is a huge moment, and it's frigging awesome to watch. If you understand it. If you dont, you're just seeing a "random" hit like any other.

 

[trufenix]

My god, people, gamers aren't morons. THere's nothing going on in fighters that the average gamer can't understand or appreciate. the answer is and always has been execution barrier. When playing fighting games is as simple as clicking a couple buttons and babysitting what happens, we will have more players.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

FALSE!

Even people within E-sports have come out and stated that fighting games are the most spectator friendly form of video game competition due to a) the relative simplicity of the concept, i.e. it's just to players beating the shit out of each other directly, and b) there's nothing really hidden in it, everything that both the players and spectators need to appreciate it is already presented on screen.

Again, this is discussed briefly in UltraDavid's article.

Great article! Excellent read. I actually do still disagree with Ultradavid somewhat though. He definitely has a point about momentum and the culture though. I do still believe one of the problems is that there *is* something hidden in whats happening on screen that remains invisible to the uninitiated. Again, I just don't think people who aren't hadcore fans of the genre really "get" the skill on display in a high level match and if anything at *best* will focus in on something like execution.

One of the things he points out in the article is how important a role the commentator plays in a starcraft match in-order to actually explain what is happening on screen to the viewer so they can appreciate what's happening, whereas in fighting games the commentator is more "icing on the cake". It makes me wonder if part of the problem here is that due to the pacing of each game the commentator can fill in the gaps in a starcraft match while in a fighting game match its simply not possible due to how much happens moment to moment.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

It's very hard to appreciate what you don't understand.

It's fairly straightforward in football to see an incredibly clever play that rocks a defense and delivers a big touchdown. You see everything happening, and even if you don't understand the particulars, you can watch the play unfold and see that the offense did something very tricky and interesting.

Fighting games, at the highest level, don't have that factor unless you play them. If you don't know a certain frame trap (or even know what that is), you don't understand that it's happening. You'd think it's just someone blocking a close st.MP, for example. And time after time, in the 3/5 set, someone does close st.MP then does nothing afterwards. When they finally, in the last round, land a close CH st.HP right after it, having spent the whole set training their opponent, that is a huge moment, and it's frigging awesome to watch. If you understand it. If you dont, you're just seeing a "random" hit like any other.

Right. Yet, as I previously stated, RTSes, MMOs and MOBAs have a bigger following despite being more xomplex than Fighting Games.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

My god, people, gamers aren't morons. THere's nothing going on in fighters that the average gamer can't understand or appreciate. the answer is and always has been execution barrier. When playing fighting games is as simple as clicking a couple buttons and babysitting what happens, we will have more players.

It seems you haven't read my post. Tell me how MMOs, RTSes and MOBAs are just button-mashing babysitting? Have you seen the hands of a pro StarCraft player?

As for your execution barrier point, if you're not absolutely fuck lazy, you can take 5 minutes to go practice a combo in training mode by breaking it down piece by piece and get it down. There are also games like P4A and SFxT where they give you easier alternatives to combo and have less benefit from it. I don't see those games having a large following either.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

My god, people, gamers aren't morons. THere's nothing going on in fighters that the average gamer can't understand or appreciate. the answer is and always has been execution barrier. When playing fighting games is as simple as clicking a couple buttons and babysitting what happens, we will have more players.

I don't think the execution barrier is the problem. You don't need execution to appreciate high level play, and one could even argue that RTS games at the highest level have an equally large execution barrier due to the amount of actions per minute you have to do.
I do agree that there's nothing going on in fighters that the average gamer can't understand or appreciate....but the problem is that I think its something they need to learn to appreciate somewhat.

 

[Rip Torn]

It's very hard to appreciate what you don't understand.

It's fairly straightforward in football to see an incredibly clever play that rocks a defense and delivers a big touchdown. You see everything happening, and even if you don't understand the particulars, you can watch the play unfold and see that the offense did something very tricky and interesting.

Fighting games, at the highest level, don't have that factor unless you play them. If you don't know a certain frame trap (or even know what that is), you don't understand that it's happening. You'd think it's just someone blocking a close st.MP, for example. And time after time, in the 3/5 set, someone does close st.MP then does nothing afterwards. When they finally, in the last round, land a close CH st.HP right after it, having spent the whole set training their opponent, that is a huge moment, and it's frigging awesome to watch. If you understand it. If you dont, you're just seeing a "random" hit like any other.

Are you saying that MOBA's are easy to watch and understand like NFL football? I couldn't disagree more. I've tried watching MOBA's and RTS games and because I haven't played them, they are very difficult to understand.

The way the camera works in a MOBA is very awkward. There is all this stuff going on, but you are only able to see part of the action. It's almost nauseating how the producers will move the spectator cam around the arena to try and catch all the action.

With a fighting game, all the action is right in front of you and the same view is available to both the players and the spectators, showing all the action in it's intended form.

Also, I'm not so sure NFL football is that easy to understand to the untrained eye. Boxing is easier to understand, and that's the foundation that fighting games are built on; a boxing/wrestling/martial arts match. The same concept used to entertain the masses for centuries going back to the ancient Olympic games.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

@Fraud Blank As of now, PC Gamers are predisposed toward tackling complicated or more challenging games because they've been doing so for years. All sorts of MMOs, complex strategy games, RTS's and the like have been popular for decades on PC, going back to the origin of all those genres. So if you're used to playing Starcraft, Civilization, Age of Empires, Everquest, EVE etc. a MOBA isn't as far of a conceptual leap.

Fighting games are joystick/pad games, so they don't benefit from that.

But I think more importantly, Fighting Games aren't massively popular because people see them as Arcade games.. It's not just the depth; it's that a lot of people don't even *know* the depth is there.. They don't understand the kind of mind games that go into it, and they can't see the kind of beauty in a good set or in footsies that gets people excited.

At least in Starcraft, you can be like "Whoa, this dude is managing 500 units and strategizing to build stuff".. Or in a MOBA, you can see the players ganging up in different ways, strategizing to choose between 100 heroes, making rushes down the lanes etc. You know right off the bat, from just looking at the roster and ability trees that there's a lot to learn. But most people still see fighting games as "cheap" or button mashers, and it's not until someone opens your eyes that you learn about that whole new world behind kick/punch/fireball.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

Are you saying that MOBA's are easy to watch and understand like NFL football? I couldn't disagree more. I've tried watching MOBA's and RTS games and because I haven't played them, they are very difficult to understand.

The way the camera works in a MOBA is very awkward. There is all this stuff going on, but you are only able to see part of the action. It's almost nauseating how the producers will move the spectator cam around the arena to try and catch all the action.

With a fighting game, all the action is right in front of you and the same view is available to both the players and the spectators, showing all the action in it's intended form.

Also, I'm not so sure NFL football is that easy to understand to the untrained eye. Boxing is easier to understand, and that's the foundation that fighting games are built on; a boxing/wrestling/martial arts match. The same concept used to entertain the masses for centuries going back to the ancient Olympic games.

If I understand his point properly (which I think I do because it sounds similar to mine) Its not so much that its easier to understand as it is that its easier to understand that what you're watching is extremely complex and skillfull. To put it another way, if you watch a Moba or an RTS you may not realize exactly what's going on, but you can clearly see that what's happening is very intricate and organized and extremely complicated....and with the help of the commentator to fill in the gaps you can sort of get a grasp of it.

Fighters seems like they should be more straightforward since everything is happening on screen so clearly...and yet sooooo much is happening under the hood that you just can't appreciate unless you play them at a high level, and it all happens so fast that the commentator doesn't have time to explain it. Saying something like "THE MIND GAMES" doesn't really help the viewer understand exactly how one player is manipulating the other players expectations and pattern recognition against them.
Again, on a surface level...I think all most casual viewers see is combos.

 

[Mst]

You will have problems understanding the fine details of any high lvl comp game doesn't matter if it's a fighting game, MOBA or RTS if you have not played a similar game or have any kind of experience.
It also took really long (outside of korea) to get close to those numbers of viewers for games like CS:GO, SC2 ... with the release of the SC2 beta the entire viewer and streaming aspect of esports got a huge boost (at the time twitch, own3d and ustream got popular aswell).
The Fighting Game Scene and games are also really splitted up in different games and platforms. For alot of "PC" competitive games a huge part of the community moved along together to the next game when one died. When SC2 beta got released most of the wc3 and broodwar guys moved to sc2. The same happend with the release of CS:GO with the Source and 1.6 community.

With Fighting Games you have everything really splitted up in games which is great because everyone likes different kind of games but it also decreases the following of a single game. Having games on diffent platforms compared to one where everyone plays on isnt helping either in my opinion.

There are btw alot of "eSports" people which play fighting games on there spare time pro players aswell.

 

[Rip Torn]

If I understand his point properly (which I think I do because it sounds similar to mine) Its not so much that its easier to understand as it is that its easier to understand that what you're watching is extremely complex and skillfull. To put it another way, if you watch a Moba or an RTS you may not realize exactly what's going on, but you can clearly see that what's happening is very intricate and organized and extremely complicated....and with the help of the commentator to fill in the gaps you can sort of get a grasp of it.

Fighters seems like they should be more straightforward since everything is happening on screen so clearly...and yet sooooo much is happening under the hood that you just can't appreciate unless you play them at a high level, and it all happens so fast that the commentator doesn't have time to explain it. Saying something like "THE MIND GAMES" doesn't really help the viewer understand exactly how one player is manipulating the other players expectations and pattern recognition against them.
Again, on a surface level...I think all most casual viewers see is combos.

I just don't think that is the issue. There are other factors that are more obvious/influential. MOBA's and RTS's have always been on PC, which is sort of a universal platform worldwide. Fighting games have had to go through this awkward transition of being mainly in arcades, to being on consoles at home. Neither is as common as a PC. Also, fighting games suffer greatly when there is lag, MOBA's, not so much. The online communities for these games are huge as a result of the platform and the stability of online play where a few frames of lag wont make the game unplayable.

Anyway, Fighting games are very popular. We just don't see it right now, but they are. Check out this article about a KOF '97 tournament in China that had over 500,000 viewers at peak. It was grassroots too. http://dreamcancel.com/2014/12/21/kof-97-douyu-cup-becomes-one-of-the-most-spectated-fighting-game-tournament-in-history-with-500000-peak-viewers/

 

[coolwhip]

My god, people, gamers aren't morons. THere's nothing going on in fighters that the average gamer can't understand or appreciate. the answer is and always has been execution barrier. When playing fighting games is as simple as clicking a couple buttons and babysitting what happens, we will have more players.

I disagree. We have people who actually play Injustice and don't understand its footsies. How can an average gamer who has never played a fighting game in his life understand the complexity of a neutral game?

 

[REO]

MOBA's are not super "complex" or "execution" heavy any more than fighting games. At least DotA isn't and I've been playing it for ten years. I would even go to say getting into a fighting game competitively is a lot more difficult to do than getting into a MOBA competitively. (again, I guess it's just DotA)

DotA is popular for four basic reasons:

- Netplay is superb
- Infinite balance patches and content which gives it virtually infinite replay value for many
- It's FREE and on the most common gaming platform ever (PC)
- The "casual" community is linked together with the "competitive" community through marketing and advertising. This basically means DotA releases super uber cool "costumes" or funny gadgets that casual players purchase, a portion of the money spent to buy any of this items goes to tournament price pots for the competitive scene. It's a win / win scenario for all. Competitive tourneys and such are also featured and advertised on the homepage of DotA game for all to see and you can watch live games by purchasing tickets that ALSO go into tournament pots... Valve so smart.