Can someone explain the NRS balance philosophy

[Doombawkz]

Why would he feel a need to be prepared for Bane when the consensus among the top level players is that Bane isn't a threat?

Why would he lose a 3-7 MU against a "non-threatening" character with worse fundamentals? Even one round is too much to make Crimson's idea of Bane's unviability true. If a sub-par-not-bad Bane could pull a round off of KDZ, someone like Mustard could've pulled a set.

If you don't believe him, that's on you -- but he's never had a reason to lie. But hey, I'm sure you know better.

If you can't see the drastic turnaround that happened after he figured out what to do, then it's probably a waste of time to even argue this point.

I saw it, it wasn't "drastic" so much as the Bane used old tactics expecting them to work twice, and did so poorly. If KDZ needed a round to figure out THAT as superman, then by god even I could've been the EVO champion.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

If KDZ needed a round to figure out THAT as superman, then by god even I could've been the EVO champion.

Then go to EVO next year and win

*sigh*

 

[Doombawkz]

Then go to EVO next year and win

*sigh*

If I traveled, I'd be happy to play against him. I'd even show him a thing or two from the Bane side of things.

If Injustice is at EVO next year, I'll be there. I'm making it a thing now to go every year if possible (if its in Hawaii then ehhhh...). By then though it'll be different characters, since Bane is probably going to receive another few buffs and Supes will probably get hit by a few nerfs.

 

[godlessmode]

Why would he lose a 3-7 MU against a "non-threatening" character with worse fundamentals? Even one round is too much to make Crimson's idea of Bane's unviability true. If a sub-par-not-bad Bane could pull a round off of KDZ, someone like Mustard could've pulled a set.

MU numbers are based on an assumption that both players are playing at the highest levels. This means that inherently a MU assumes a level of match-up experience on both sides. In other words, assuming he had no experience with the MU, it wasn't a 7-3 in his favor, because for it to be that he would have had to KNOW the match-up intimately and made the right decisions.

Instead he learned the MU on the fly and STILL won.

You're argument MIGHT be valid on a 10-0 depending on WHY it was a 10-0.

Sometimes MUs are defined by esoteric knowledge as opposed to common knowledge.

 

[Doombawkz]

MU numbers are based on an assumption that both players are playing at the highest levels. This means that inherently a MU assumes a level of match-up experience on both sides. In other words, assuming he had no experience with the MU, it wasn't a 7-3 in his favor, because for it to be that he would have had to KNOW the match-up intimately and made the right decisions.

Instead he learned the MU on the fly and STILL won.

You're argument MIGHT be valid on a 10-0 depending on WHY it was a 10-0.

Sometimes MUs are defined by esoteric knowledge as opposed to common knowledge.

Its done at a 3-7 because of the tools available, since its far too early to assume anyone knows everything about any other character. On paper and in practice, the EVO champion shouldn't lose even one round against a middle of the road Bane. You don't need extensive playtime to know how to outplay someone on a fundamental level, Chris G rocking the GA is proof enough that at the end of the day the better player should be securing the wins, and if the skill gap is as wide as it is, with the character A almost countering character B, then it should've been a 2-0 wrap from the start in favor of KDZ.

Unless you are going to tell me KDZ lacks the fundamentals and tools to handle the average Bane player al dente, I'm going to hold that Bane is viable and can roll when in the right hands. Not knowing the MU helps, but even a complete lack of knowledge Ice Climber can beat a Bowser 2-0 just off of their basic tools.

 

[godlessmode]

...

By the argument you just provided, based on the tools on paper Superman beats Bane 7-3.

It's only when you start bringing out match-up specific knowledge that you can even begin to argue a better MU for Bane.

 

[Hellbringer]

Are you really saying that after 3-months the anti-Bane tech from other characters is fully explored?

In MK9, people are still learning things about their characters. However, that doesn't make Baraka a would-be great character.



I know two great banes, who agreed. So that point is moot. I'm not basing this off of random online Bane's who haven't actually tested out their claims.

If you believe differently, then you should prove it and I'll accept it. Until then, I'd take the word of the people that have been there.

Im sure it took a while before kenshi was considered top even tough ppl know all his tools
And shang tsung? Wasnt he like mid tier for 2 years?

 

[Doombawkz]

By the argument you just provided, based on the tools on paper Superman beats Bane 7-3.

It's only when you start bringing out match-up specific knowledge that you can even begin to argue a better MU for Bane.

I'm not arguing a better MU for Bane. I'm arguing he has tools, not even specific tools but just ones he has in tow. The KDZ v GRR used none of them, so that's going off of no MU knowledge when frankly none should be needed.

Lets say BA v Bane, or Flash v Bane. How much knowledge do you think they really need to beat an average Bane?

 

[godlessmode]

I'm not arguing a better MU for Bane. I'm arguing he has tools, not even specific tools but just ones he has in tow. The KDZ v GRR used none of them, so that's going off of no MU knowledge when frankly none should be needed.

So either

A: the MU is 7-3 because of just looking at tools on paper
or
B: the MU requires specific MU based knowledge to be applicable.

Please pick one.

Because Bane has no tools that are better than supermans on paper.

It's not until you start applying MU specifics (such as Bane being able to cope with f23 pressure to some extent) that you can begin to make a solid argument for Bane's station.

Further, a single match between two players (regardless of skill level) does not define a MU in any way shape or form. To argue otherwise is to try and remove the human element from an incredibly human system.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Im sure it took a while before kenshi was considered top even tough ppl know all his tools

But everyone agreed that he was going to be a problem based on his tools -- so no one was surprised when the predictions came to pass.

And shang tsung? Wasnt he like mid tier for 2 years?

He still isn't top tier, despite WC being an amazing player. Not much has changed in that regard.

 

[Doombawkz]

So either

A: the MU is 7-3 because of just looking at tools on paper
or
B: the MU requires specific MU based knowledge to be applicable.

Please pick one.

Because Bane has no tools that are better than supermans on paper.

It's not until you start applying MU specifics (such as Bane being able to cope with f23 pressure to some extent) that you can begin to make a solid argument for Bane's station.

Further, a single match between two players (regardless of skill level) does not define a MU in any way shape or form. To argue otherwise is to try and remove the human element from an incredibly human system.

Its A, plain and simple. There was no need for MU specific knowledge because there wasn't anything outside of standard tools used. This was a standard basic Bane taking a round off of someone who 2-0s better players with "better" characters and won the biggest tourney in the world for this kind of thing.

That shouldn't happen unless Bane, on his basics, isn't as bad as everyone says. "unviable" characters don't do that, a Jade isn't taking a round off of a Kenshi like Pig unless they are bringing specific new things to the table. This was not such a case.


Like if you want to put an A or B situation on it, here is a better fitting one:

A) Bane is a viable character who is constantly improving and can hold his own

or

B) The Evo champion lacks the fundamental skill and character tools as Superman to win a 3-7 (on paper, debatable 2-8 with adv. supes) MU against an average Bane using nothing but his basic character-given tools when he has 2-0'd better players with better skills.

One is a given truth a lot of people agree with, and the other is a drawn-out misconception of what happened but would only be possible if A were not true. GRR didn't b.23 fast stand of OHVCS KDZ. If he had, yeah, I'd say "well there were surprises KDZ wasn't ready to face". But it was literally just the barebones basics, and poor usage at that.

If he hit him with Bane's 0-death string, I'd understand. But he didn't. There was nothing surprising aside from the Bane taking a match while still in the gray.

 

[Hellbringer]

But everyone agreed that he was going to be a problem based on his tools -- so no one was surprised when the predictions came to pass.

He still isn't top tier, despite WC being an amazing player. Not much has changed in that regard.

Have you seen what detroit did with shang?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Have you seen what detroit did with shang?

Yes -- that doesn't change Shang's position in the roster. Guess why Detroit stopped playing him

 

[Hellbringer]

Yes -- that doesn't change Shang's position in the roster. Guess why Detroit stopped playing him

He shouldnt have stopped playing him
Im glad shang tsung still got repped by WC cause shang is my favorite to watch

 

[RomeoBravoDelta]

I don't think anyone's actually mystified by NRS's balance philosophy. We all really KNOW what it is; it's just that most people have a really hard time accepting the truth and "unfairness" of how this actually works.

NRS's balance agenda in a nutshell:
"Do what the Warner Bros. execs tell us to do."***




***What the Warner Bros. execs told them to do:
1. Make the marquis characters (Superman, Batman, etc.) the best and easiest to play, because that will sell a bunch of games and cross-market their other media, merchandise, etc.

2. Make the popular and well-known characters (Bat-sidekicks and anyone who's been a member of the Justice League) also pretty good, but not the best, because they'll still get lots of players and lots of cross-marketing opportunities.

3. Make a couple of less-popular but appealing characters also quite good (Black Adam, Killer Frost). This will throw people off of seeing a clear pattern in character bias, as well as maybe set up future franchises.

4. Spend as little time (re: money) on the rest of the cast as possible. We gotta get the next big game into production!

I doubt the conspiracy runs that deep.

NRS seems to design aesthetically first and mechanically second. They want the characters to look and move a certain way and then they sort out the frames and boxes afterwards. Basically, they design the characters backwards.

 

[trufenix]

I doubt the conspiracy runs that deep.

NRS seems to design aesthetically first and mechanically second. They want the characters to look and move a certain way and then they sort out the frames and boxes afterwards. Basically, they design the characters backwards.

Uh, all fighting games are done that way. The people who design, model and animate moves are not the guys who do balance.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Can we all congratulate Doomsday on beating Chris G in grand finals at VxG? Even though it wasn't statistically likely to happen?

 

[That__John__Guy]

Maybe it would help to look at it from a game designer's point of view. You have 20-some characters, each with dozens of moves. Their moves have a lot of variety to them: some teleport, some shoot projectiles, some can armour, and so on. So you want to have a wide variety of characters with a wide variety of moves and a wide variety of play styles. Now, make the game in such a way that it is in perfect balance, so that no character has any inherent advantage over any other character overall.

That is pretty hard to do, Sir. You can have a a couple dozen people working on the game playtesting it, while they are also coding, doing character design, etc. You can bring in some high-level players for about a week (which is all they got AFAIK) to give some input. Yet, there is only so much you can do in advance. When the game is released and there a million people playing, when there are thousands upon thousands of people putting hours and days and weeks into each character to discover tricks and tech, of course there are going to be disparities that emerge.

If you have two characters with two moves each, it is probably pretty easy to make them balanced. When you have dozens of characters with dozens of moves, mathematically it becomes nigh impossible to have a perfectly balanced game, particularly one that is perfectly balanced upon release. Does anyone have an example of a complicated, intricate fighting game with a multitude of characters that was absolutely perfectly balanced upon release? Aren't the constant patches from NRS evidence that they are trying to make IGAU balanced? Maybe the "philosophy" of NRS is that they would like to have a balanced game, are trying to have a balanced game, but it isn't as easy as clicking your ruby slippers together.

 

[Doombawkz]

Can we all congratulate Doomsday on beating Chris G in grand finals at VxG? Even though it wasn't statistically likely to happen?

Sure, but it was still more likely statistically speaking than Bane doing so.

 

[Enigma642]

Maybe it would help to look at it from a game designer's point of view. You have 20-some characters, each with dozens of moves. Their moves have a lot of variety to them: some teleport, some shoot projectiles, some can armour, and so on. So you want to have a wide variety of characters with a wide variety of moves and a wide variety of play styles. Now, make the game in such a way that it is in perfect balance, so that no character has any inherent advantage over any other character overall.

That is pretty hard to do, Sir. You can have a a couple dozen people working on the game playtesting it, while they are also coding, doing character design, etc. You can bring in some high-level players for about a week (which is all they got AFAIK) to give some input. Yet, there is only so much you can do in advance. When the game is released and there a million people playing, when there are thousands upon thousands of people putting hours and days and weeks into each character to discover tricks and tech, of course there are going to be disparities that emerge.

If you have two characters with two moves each, it is probably pretty easy to make them balanced. When you have dozens of characters with dozens of moves, mathematically it becomes nigh impossible to have a perfectly balanced game, particularly one that is perfectly balanced upon release. Does anyone have an example of a complicated, intricate fighting game with a multitude of characters that was absolutely perfectly balanced upon release? Aren't the constant patches from NRS evidence that they are trying to make IGAU balanced? Maybe the "philosophy" of NRS is that they would like to have a balanced game, are trying to have a balanced game, but it isn't as easy as clicking your ruby slippers together.

You put yourself in the developer's shoes, and realized what a tremendous task balancing a game must be. This requires that you look past your own wants and needs and thing about somebody else's troubles. That normally doesn't happen on this website.

The only thing I would add is this...even if NRS somehow balanced this game to perfection, there would still be tons of people complaining. If you fix the game, group A complains. If you don't fix the game, group B complains. That is life though.