EGP Awesomo
R.T.S.D
My insides hurt from laughing too much :\And with this, I'm out
My insides hurt from laughing too much :\And with this, I'm out
This is basically where me and @Dja_Homies were trying to go with the changes. Make the other normals faster (d1 and 1) and some with better anti air properties (1 ala mk9, but thats just me being greedy, and f4). I feel like just because he cant jail doesnt mean hes not a offensive power house. Heavy weapons is actually negative on most of his cancels but his ability to bait and convert makes the variation really good. Like the only problem i had with hellfire getting nerfed in frames was that he didnt really have a good footsie tool to play around with in the neutral. Johnny has f3, which can blow up backdashes (on reads), jumping, and neutral ducking. And if you keep the frames at around +5 theyd still have to either block, armor or backdash because being +5 against johnny gets you a d1 if youre frame perfect. IDK thats just me tho, I think people dont really understand how good his tool kit currently is outside of the massive + frames. But on that note, I think I really just want to stop whiffing throw when Im way too plus off f3 or 121 :[This thread took a turn that I honestly wasn't expecting (can you tell I'm new to TYM?)
What exactly would be fair nerfs to A-List anyway? This is something that a lot of folks can't seem to reach a consensus for. I can't imagine lowering his plus frames would hurt him that much, especially since he'd still be able to bait and punish armor. Especially-especially if they gave him faster pokes/normals to compensate. A faster f4 would do wonders for anti-airing, and a faster d1 or d3 would be hell for your opponent if they didn't have meter.
Granted, if his plus frames were heavily altered, I think it'd only be fair for no characters to jail at that point beyond a guaranteed poke, but still be plus enough to catch your opponent pressing buttons with a full combo punish. It'd promote more mind games, I think. It'd become less, 'I know that you can't do anything after these cancels' and more 'You know that I know that you know you can armor through these cancels, but are you gonna take the risk?'
I don't know, but I can't imagine that @EGP Awesomo 's suggestions would hurt Cage that much in the long run. It'd suck at first, sure, but I think some of us may be underestimating how good a character who can make even his most unsafe strings plus can be when played with the appropriate mindset.
Am I misunderstanding something here?
We can't tell if he will become better or worse after the suggested changes...It depends on how faster would his pokes be after the hypothethical (and unrealistic) buff. if D1 and S1 become 6 frames (and also better anti airs, together with f4, like suggested) and he loses the ability to jail after f3 but is still plus (+5), he actually becomes FAR stronger than now.This thread took a turn that I honestly wasn't expecting (can you tell I'm new to TYM?)
What exactly would be fair nerfs to A-List anyway? This is something that a lot of folks can't seem to reach a consensus for. I can't imagine lowering his plus frames would hurt him that much, especially since he'd still be able to bait and punish armor. Especially-especially if they gave him faster pokes/normals to compensate. A faster f4 would do wonders for anti-airing, and a faster d1 or d3 would be hell for your opponent if they didn't have meter.
Granted, if his plus frames were heavily altered, I think it'd only be fair for no characters to jail at that point beyond a guaranteed poke, but still be plus enough to catch your opponent pressing buttons with a full combo punish. It'd promote more mind games, I think. It'd become less, 'I know that you can't do anything after these cancels' and more 'You know that I know that you know you can armor through these cancels, but are you gonna take the risk?'
I don't know, but I can't imagine that @EGP Awesomo 's suggestions would hurt Cage that much in the long run. It'd suck at first, sure, but I think some of us may be underestimating how good a character who can make even his most unsafe strings plus can be when played with the appropriate mindset.
Am I misunderstanding something here?
Eh, I noticed that, but it didnt really feel like much of a difference since most of the top 10 can punish it regardless of the pushback hahaHere's a change that I didn't see anyone mentioning:
Cage's ExNP doesn't have pushback in the corner anymore.
This is potentially big, since ExNP was somewhat safer on block since it had a huge pushback when done in the corner. Cassie could barely punish it (I actually think she couldn't punish it at all), but now that the pushback is gone, the whole cast can punish it pretty easily.
Dude most of the posts i reply to were people saying jc was way better than liu prepatch and you 'just get jailed for days by his 50/50s' like nothing vaguely true. The community bandwagon Atm is an erection for hating on cage, you included so im also outtieee.And with this, I'm out
F2 is OH.If this is the case him having b3 as a mid is enogh, he shouldn't have f2 as a mid. I think it isn't though.
No it's notF2 is OH.
In the beta?It's mid?Well, then the "Mixups" he had don't even exist now then lol.No it's not![]()
I believe we're talking about two different charactersIn the beta?It's mid?Well, then the "Mixups" he had don't even exist now then lol.![]()
...I'm talking about Johnny Cage, people said he has mixups with 11 f2 and 113 and said f2 is OH.I believe we're talking about two different characters![]()
I was having a talk with a couple other guys about Lao, I'm assuming you haven't read most of the thread. But I see where the confusion is, all good....I'm talking about Johnny Cage, people said he has mixups with 11 f2 and 113 and said f2 is OH.
You said f2 isn't OH.....
I think that we both are talking about different characters.
Woops, sorry about that.I was having a talk with a couple other guys about Lao, I'm assuming you haven't read most of the thread. But I see where the confusion is, all good.
Wtf... I can't believe this. Totally unnecessary.Here's a change that I didn't see anyone mentioning:
Cage's ExNP doesn't have pushback in the corner anymore.
This is potentially big, since ExNP was somewhat safer on block since it had a huge pushback when done in the corner. Cassie could barely punish it (I actually think she couldn't punish it at all), but now that the pushback is gone, the whole cast can punish it pretty easily.
What? That thing was safe vs a lot of characters because of the pushback in the corner -_- really?Wtf... I can't believe this. Totally unnecessary.
Even if thay want to screw A-List a bit I could understand this. But doing it also to Stunt double...and Fisticuffs....? Really?
Damn, nrs, you are condemning FC to live in bottom 3 spots. Give him a break.
And that tool made FC broken, right?What? That thing was safe vs a lot of characters because of the pushback in the corner -_- really?
True, I'm saying this from a "fuck A-list" ponit of viewAnd that tool made FC broken, right?
Nutpunch has different properties in A-list than Fisticuffs. Treating both the same in terms of nerfs is absurd.
There has been discussion about if A-List is fine or not. Imo he's a very good well rounded character, and he will continue to be even with slight nerfs on his advantage on cancels.Uh I didn't follow this thread much but what's up with everyone being pissed? This isn't only about the -6 d4 is it?
A-list is really good, but doesn't need nerfs in my opinion. Slight adjustments on the cancels will likely happen, but besides that he doesn't really have much nerf-worthy stuff. Fisticuffs does need buffs, most notably being able to do two flip kicks for the swaggiest corner combo ever. Also a little less pushback on speedbag. Did the 17% throw help out any for Fisticuffs?There has been discussion about if A-List is fine or not. Imo he's a very good well rounded character, and he will continue to be even with slight nerfs on his advantage on cancels.
But nrs should be much more careful, those possible A-List nerfs shouldn't touch variations that don't deserve nerfs, but buffs.
Players tend not care about Fistucuffs, because meh, "A-List is good". Even some top players I asked for ideas to improve this variation answered like "just play A-List". And this is sad. Every variation should be viable and shine in some area, and this is not the case with FC.
Agree, A-List will be competitive even with those adjustments.A-list is really good, but doesn't need nerfs in my opinion. Slight adjustments on the cancels will likely happen, but besides that he doesn't really have much nerf-worthy stuff. Fisticuffs does need buffs, most notably being able to do two flip kicks for the swaggiest corner combo ever. Also a little less pushback on speedbag. Did the 17% throw help out any for Fisticuffs?