Match-up Discussion Bad Matchups: How to Deal with them

[AYSAMO]

i agree with everything bar the D1, why use baraka's 7 frame D1 while kang has a 7 frame D3??
baraka has a 6 frame D3 and it less punishable on block and with more hit advantage than D1

I always thought his d1 was 6 and his d3 was 7, since d3 is kind of universally 7 frames for most/all characters. If that's the case then definitely use that more.

Also, watch out for Kang's f12; because you can't interrupt it once you see it come out. If Baraka's d3 is 6 frames he won't be able to use this string to continue pressure following with a d3. He will have to cancel into EX low fireball or try to jump after a f12. There's also a possibility he completes the full f121 instead, just be aware of how often they do that, if at all.

His b312 is the biggest problem with the kang matchup in general. If you punish correctly when Kang tries to use his f12 string, they'll probably just start staggering b312 instead. It's very risky trying to poke out of this string at the risk of getting EX low fireballed or whiffing and getting full combo punished. It's best you wait until he completes the full b312, then poke. If he tries jumping after a b312, just anti-air with d4 into a f4 to reset him to start your own pressure.

There's not a whole lot of high level liu kang players, so if anyone needs help add me on PSN. Standard liu kang players shouldn't be a huge problem, since they rarely have any sort of mix-ups or pressure outside of following b312 with another b312. Baraka always seemed like a character built for baiting and punishing, so keep that mindset whenever fighting kang.

 

[1man3letters]

I always thought his d1 was 6 and his d3 was 7, since d3 is kind of universally 7 frames for most/all characters. If that's the case then definitely use that more.

Also, watch out for Kang's f12; because you can't interrupt it once you see it come out. If Baraka's d3 is 6 frames he won't be able to use this string to continue pressure following with a d3. He will have to cancel into EX low fireball or try to jump after a f12. There's also a possibility he completes the full f121 instead, just be aware of how often they do that, if at all.

His b312 is the biggest problem with the kang matchup in general. If you punish correctly when Kang tries to use his f12 string, they'll probably just start staggering b312 instead. It's very risky trying to poke out of this string at the risk of getting EX low fireballed or whiffing and getting full combo punished. It's best you wait until he completes the full b312, then poke. If he tries jumping after a b312, just anti-air with d4 into a f4 to reset him to start your own pressure.

There's not a whole lot of high level liu kang players, so if anyone needs help add me on PSN. Standard liu kang players shouldn't be a huge problem, since they rarely have any sort of mix-ups or pressure outside of following b312 with another b312. Baraka always seemed like a character built for baiting and punishing, so keep that mindset whenever fighting kang.

nope him and CSZ both have 6 frame d3s, its pretty sweet

what do u mean u cant interrupt F12 when you see it come out?
do u mean at touching distance cause if your far enoough away u can D4 or spin it.
yea that ex low fireball is a stupid good mixup

yea b312 is a pain, how that string is 0 on block ill never know

about baiting and punishing,only really things kang does that are punishable is his flying kicks,bicycles kicks and parry and kang has very little reason to use these in the MU alot really

 

[Zoidberg747]

Since I play both Kang and Baraka, I can tell you Baraka's best tool in this matchup is his d1. He can outpressure kang if you poke and counterpoke correctly. You want to stay about 2 character distances away from Kang so you can stuff any jump attempts and punish zoning. If you manage to get Kang in the corner don't be scared to pressure, his only wakeup options are low ex fireball for a stun, or risk an ex bicycle kick to try and get out. This is where Kang is the most vulnerable, try to push him towards the corner as best you can and keep him there. It's a very workable matchup.

His d1 is -13 on block and combo punishable.

So sorry but that is definitely not the key to the matchup.

 

[Squeaker101]

I enjoy this. More!!! More!!!

 

[Zoidberg747]

well i play the kang MU alot (to much) offline so i could help with that?

ps. maybe in upcoming things leave out making reads as a strat to get damage like with KL , guessing right and reading your opp its not a gamplan for a certain match, making reads fall under every MU in the game

You could just do it if you want. You see how me and SomeCubanGuy make them, Im sure you could make something just as if not even more in depth than we have been doing. If you have time restraints I understand, but I currently cannot make a full in depth guide of Liu Kang. Right now the order I can make is Johnny Cage and possibly Rain. The others I really need more practice offline.

Also I will try and keep in mind what you said about making reads.

 

[1man3letters]

You could just do it if you want. You see how me and SomeCubanGuy make them, Im sure you could make something just as if not even more in depth than we have been doing. If you have time restraints I understand, but I currently cannot make a full in depth guide of Liu Kang. Right now the order I can make is Johnny Cage and possibly Rain. The others I really need more practice offline.

Also I will try and keep in mind what you said about making reads.

yea will do.
and rain is in no way a bad MU for baraka its 4.5-5.5/5-5 and no way in hell id call it a 4-6.ive also got a second opinions on the MU from rains for that tier list thing, none of them said it was 4-6 so again no way is that a bad MU

yea i have ALOT of cage MU exp aswell, both in and out of tourny play, i feel most confident in this MU more than any other of baraka's MUs

also sidenote how come all the chop chop stuff is still in the OP for kung lao?

that information is wrong and like i said making a read isnt MU specific information,
against ever char in the game you have to make reads but there is no point of throwing unsafe stuff for the sake of it

 

[Zoidberg747]

yea will do.
and rain is in no way a bad MU for baraka its 4.5-5.5/5-5 and no way in hell id call it a 4-6.ive also got a second opinions on the MU from rains for that tier list thing, none of them said it was 4-6 so again no way is that a bad MU

yea i have ALOT of cage MU exp aswell, both in and out of tourny play, i feel most confident in this MU more than any other of baraka's MUs

also sidenote how come all the chop chop stuff is still in the OP for kung lao?

that information is wrong and like i said making a read isnt MU specific information,
against ever char in the game you have to make reads but there is no point of throwing unsafe stuff for the sake of it

Have not had time to fix it yet, will when I get home.

Uhhh Rain can pretty much just armor out of all of Baraka's frame traps by holding his roundhouse kick dash, and he has a much better damage output. He can check us at fullscreen as well. I highly disagree here.

 

[1man3letters]

Have not had time to fix it yet, will when I get home.

Uhhh Rain can pretty much just armor out of all of Baraka's frame traps by holding his roundhouse kick dash, and he has a much better damage output. He can check us at fullscreen as well. I highly disagree here.

correct me if im wrong here,
are you theory fighting saying it 4-6 or from grinding the MU out?

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

Saying he can armor out making it a 4-6 means that every character with armor is a 4-6, and there's a lot of them.
The match is even IMO. Just respect his option of armor and play according to how you opponent does.
But yeah, other than that, it's pretty much dead even.

 

[Zoidberg747]

correct me if im wrong here,
are you theory fighting saying it 4-6 or from grinding the MU out?

There is a Rain player locally that I play yes. Can you tell me why you think it is 5-5? We may have to adjust that number in the community matchup chart.

Also is Raiden a bad matchup that I forgot? I could do a guide for him as well.

 

[MashPotatoTower]

Great stuff guys. I'm always looking at kenshis hands when I fight him. When they glow it's cross up time

 

[Miss Kanzuki]

Also is Raiden a bad matchup that I forgot? I could do a guide for him as well.

Last I heard it was 4-6 Raiden, I'd like to know more about this too

 

[1man3letters]

There is a Rain player locally that I play yes. Can you tell me why you think it is 5-5? We may have to adjust that number in the community matchup chart.

Also is Raiden a bad matchup that I forgot? I could do a guide for him as well.

yes radien is a bad MU, imo baraka 2nd/3rd worst MU imo, again i play this MU alot against more than one raiden also so i know the MU and i know its worse than 4-6 and im sorry SomeCubanGuy but the b4/f4 option select thing is too dangerous and doesnt work alot of the time

ok onto rain...
on damage(1st off forget about boost) rain has 47%-50% combos depending on meter, baraka has 47%+ combos also, sure he can only get his max damage combos in corner where rain can get it midscreen but to say that rain has a overall much higher damage output is untrue,only at midscreen he has meterless damage adv

with checking at full screen, baraka has no reason to be fullscreen in this MU, all he can do is spark and hope rain doesnt lighting or try spark and get teled on into pressure because of the ass recovery ,spark is 16 frames and lighting is 24 so the rain player cant lighting on reaction for a trade and lighting also has ass recovery as if rain gets a trade read wrong he will pay for it so those checks sound never happen and when your closer than fullscreen those checks become more of a risk for the rain player

on rain super kick blowing up raka frame traps, he can get out of some but it is in no way easy way for him to get damage,
example: the 22 1+2 f4 trap, baraka is at +8, duration of f4 is 39, rain super kick is 30 frames that a 1 frame window for escape seeing as it would take 38 frames for super kick to become active, canceling super kick into say 4 would come out in 33 frames so baraka would be able to block and keep in mind rain still takes damage when hes trying to armor out.
with moves like ex geyser and ex aqua splash he can get alot easier but with less damage, ex geyser on block gives baraka a free blockstring/spin punish also,alot of chars have armor, it doesnt mean baraka frame trap game is gone.

lets be honest unless rain in right in your face doing RH cencels etc he has no real other way of building meter so its not like in the KL MU when him using his meter is a problem because he can get it back so fast

rain has no only for baraka charge, he cant punish it and even a dash up 4 block string attempt can also be punished.
in a way rain has to play this MU like baraka would in alot of his MUs, if i have meter i can i chance if not then its going to be rough, he cant normal tele either unless baraka is already doing something since the game considers rain airborne after tele he cant duck a spin when its timed right like radien can so even jump in to tele BS some rains try wont work because either way the spin will catch the jump or the tele

baraka just plain out footsies rain in alot of ways even with the range on 4 and b2

i see it as 4.5/5.5 but i could see it as 5-5 also but 4.5-5.5 is were i stand at the minute, i really dont see any reason to push it up as far as other 4-6 like cage and sonya

 

[1man3letters]

Last I heard it was 4-6 Raiden, I'd like to know more about this too

no sweetpeas it worse than that,
3.5-6.5, this is either baraka 2nd or 3rd worst MU depending on how you compare radien to kenshi, both are 3.5-6.5

edit.shit i didnt notice u changed your name, sorry moody

 

[AYSAMO]

nope him and CSZ both have 6 frame d3s, its pretty sweet

what do u mean u cant interrupt F12 when you see it come out?
do u mean at touching distance cause if your far enoough away u can D4 or spin it.
yea that ex low fireball is a stupid good mixup

yea b312 is a pain, how that string is 0 on block ill never know

about baiting and punishing,only really things kang does that are punishable is his flying kicks,bicycles kicks and parry and kang has very little reason to use these in the MU alot really

What I mean is within poking range, the f12 string usually wins a trade. from full d4 distance you're much more likely to stuff it, just be aware of the string's forward momentum. If moves fast and has pretty good range.

The low EX fireball mixup is only good if you're not good at fuzzy-guarding. ALWAYS block low against kang, it's really easy to see his overheads coming. His f3 comes out slow enough to be able to react to, and so does his 214 string. 214 can be canceled into 21+EX low fireball, which makes it a 50/50 if you see kang has meter when he uses this string. More then likely they're gonna go for the overhead though.

Kang really has no reason to use flying kick or bicycle kick in general. they're very unsafe moves. His parry can be useful for jump-ins and in mix-ups but is still really punishable as well. I wasn't saying waiting for kang to throw those specials out is the only way you're going to punish him. I was implying you stay just outside jumping range against him, try to anti-air, and punish him if he tries to throw fireballs. From that range you can easily jump over a grounded fireball and connect a jip for full combo punish. When you're in his pressure, counterpoke, then try to connect a d4 since it guarantees a safe f4 attempt.

 

[Miss Kanzuki]

no sweetpeas it worse than that,
3.5-6.5, this is either baraka 2nd or 3rd worst MU depending on how you compare radien to kenshi, both are 3.5-6.5

edit.shit i didnt notice u changed your name, sorry moody

Dang...3.5-6.5

no problem, it's my name on MKU so I just wanted consistency lol

 

[1man3letters]

What I mean is within poking range, the f12 string usually wins a trade. from full d4 distance you're much more likely to stuff it, just be aware of the string's forward momentum. If moves fast and has pretty good range.

The low EX fireball mixup is only good if you're not good at fuzzy-guarding. ALWAYS block low against kang, it's really easy to see his overheads coming. His f3 comes out slow enough to be able to react to, and so does his 214 string. 214 can be canceled into 21+EX low fireball, which makes it a 50/50 if you see kang has meter when he uses this string. More then likely they're gonna go for the overhead though.

Kang really has no reason to use flying kick or bicycle kick in general. they're very unsafe moves. His parry can be useful for jump-ins and in mix-ups but is still really punishable as well. I wasn't saying waiting for kang to throw those specials out is the only way you're going to punish him. I was implying you stay just outside jumping range against him, try to anti-air, and punish him if he tries to throw fireballs. From that range you can easily jump over a grounded fireball and connect a jip for full combo punish. When you're in his pressure, counterpoke, then try to connect a d4 since it guarantees a safe f4 attempt.

with the ex fireball mixup, the 3 of 213 comes out in 15 frames and the low fireball comes out in 17, you can not react to it every time by fuzzy guarding and the cancel adv on both block and hit of f12 is +17 so again it not to do with fuzzy guarding there either

you said main strat should be using is too bait kang but if he has no reason to use those unsafe moves what am i baiting? ya see what i mean?
d4 doesnt give a safe jump either so i dont know what your talking about there,maybe online it does but not offline

 

[1man3letters]

Dang...3.5-6.5

no problem, it's my name on MKU so I just wanted consistency lol

ah i see.
dont worry about the numbers so much though, another irish player LaR has made me realise other people MUs charts and numbers dont mean anything what so ever, its all about YOUR MUs numbers.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Dang...3.5-6.5

no problem, it's my name on MKU so I just wanted consistency lol

Well I completely disagree on that one, but I think it is 4-6. Depends on the Raiden you are playing, but I have played a lot of them offline. But that is just a .5 difference so like he said, dont stress about it. So on the table I have Johnny, Raiden, and then the Kitana matchups to do. ill try to get em all done sometime this week.

1man3letters I wont argue on the Rain matchup, I used to think it was 5-5 as well but a lot of people called me out for it, was not as confident back then. I need to play our Rain player here and get a bit more experience with the matchup, I still think his armor is very fast and hard to pressure. Also I dont understand what you say about the combos. There is a HUGE difference between Baraka getting 47%+ in the corner, and Rain getting 47% ANYWHERE. But other than that, solid points.

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

Rain is 5-5. I play BookBurning a lot and we break even most of the time. Rain doesn't get free RHCs because of Spin, he can't punish ranged Blade Charges at all, his teleport is super punishable, his lightning and bubble are both punishable, and he has a tough time getting out of pressure. All he can do are armor gimmicks vs your wakeup (like Jade), and high damage. That's pretty much it.

Raiden is 6-4. Teleport can be scouted and punished by Spin. You can armor though his strings. Baraka has better footises. Raiden's got the advantage because he can Teleport out of frame traps and punish you, he has great whiff punishers, and he can punish Blade Charge. Plus he has an easier time pushing you to the corner than he does. It's bad, but winnable.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Zoidberg747]

Rain is 5-5. I play BookBurning a lot and we break even most of the time. Rain doesn't get free RHCs because of Spin, he can't punish ranged Blade Charges at all, his teleport is super punishable, his lightning and bubble are both punishable, and he has a tough time getting out of pressure. All he can do are armor gimmicks vs your wakeup (like Jade), and high damage. That's pretty much it.

Raiden is 6-4. Teleport can be scouted and punished by Spin. You can armor though his strings. Baraka has better footises. Raiden's got the advantage because he can Teleport out of frame traps and punish you, he has great whiff punishers, and he can punish Blade Charge. Plus he has an easier time pushing you to the corner than he does. It's bad, but winnable.

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Like I said I forfeit the Rain matchup to you all, changed it on the community matchup chart as well.

We also think very alike on the Raiden matchup. Teleport's can be punished by spin unless they surprise you. We have the better footsies because of D4 and punishing the teleport with spin. His strings if you know the frame data are actually pretty easy to punish and if they cancel into the teleport you can spin. Like you said though, he does shut down any of your pressure game and makes it very hard to build meter. Maybe I will try and do this matchup first, since it seems like we all are not in agreement, maybe try to clear a few things up.

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

Like I said I forfeit the Rain matchup to you all, changed it on the community matchup chart as well.

We also think very alike on the Raiden matchup. Teleport's can be punished by spin unless they surprise you. We have the better footsies because of D4 and punishing the teleport with spin. His strings if you know the frame data are actually pretty easy to punish and if they cancel into the teleport you can spin. Like you said though, he does shut down any of your pressure game and makes it very hard to build meter. Maybe I will try and do this matchup first, since it seems like we all are not in agreement, maybe try to clear a few things up.

And I know we hate the throw button, but you have to constantly use it in this matchup after block strings. It's the only way to keep hit from teleporting so much. Not sure if Baraka has better footsies though. Raiden's B3 is very good. I'd say they're about even.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[AYSAMO]

with the ex fireball mixup, the 3 of 213 comes out in 15 frames and the low fireball comes out in 17, you can not react to it every time by fuzzy guarding and the cancel adv on both block and hit of f12 is +17 so again it not to do with fuzzy guarding there either

you said main strat should be using is too bait kang but if he has no reason to use those unsafe moves what am i baiting? ya see what i mean?
d4 doesnt give a safe jump either so i dont know what your talking about there,maybe online it does but not offline

Yea I said the 213 string is a 50/50 when he has meter for a low EX fireball, I didn't say it was fuzziable. And what you're baiting is jump-ins and fireballs. I said earlier you should space yourself just outside jumping distance so you can react to a fireball or jump-in. As long as he's not in your face baraka is in control.

 

[Zoidberg747]

And I know we hate the throw button, but you have to constantly use it in this matchup after block strings. It's the only way to keep hit from teleporting so much. Not sure if Baraka has better footsies though. Raiden's B3 is very good. I'd say they're about even.

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You just said in your post Baraka has better footsies lol. His b3 is alright but it is a little slower on startup and can be punished easier, I find.

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

You just said in your post Baraka has better footsies lol. His b3 is alright but it is a little slower on startup and can be punished easier, I find.

Lol yeah I realized I did, then I though about it and Baraka's footsies aren't that much better really. I guess they're closer to about even. Baraka has a slight advantage, but it's definitely debatable.

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