An Old-School SoulCalibur Player with a Calmer View on Gear....

[Esruck Cype]

Hey TYM,

TL;DR: SoulCalibur, still one of the biggest FG series of all time, had a stat system, even eventually being playable online. You could play two modes, one with stats on, or one with stats off. And it wasn't a big deal. At all. The end.

I'm E.C. Your resident old fart "used to be semi-pro" lover-of-all-FGs member. Injustice 2's Gear system seems to have all you whipper-snappers in a tizzy regarding balance and competitive play. Well, back in my day, I played a series that had a "gear" system. And the earlier versions originally were released in the arcade, which I had to go to by walking up a hill in the snow. Five miles both ways.

Way back when Midway started making non-competitive MK games of questionable quality, and Capcom said "fuck you" to all FG fans, Namco was still making bank and ruling arcades and local tourneys with Tekken and SoulCalibur. SoulCalibur II, in particular, was great, with the arcade Conquest mode eventually being the inspiration for MKX' Faction Battle mode.

But, curiously enough, something else from the venerable series seems to show up in a latter NRS game. See, SoulCalibur II for the home systems (PS2, Xbox, Gamecube) was offline only, but it came with these Extra modes (Versus, Arcade, Practice) etc. In these modes, when you played through the game, you earned new weapons for your characters such as Seung-Mina using a halberd or a broom or Link using a bug-catcher net. These weapons all had different stats and looks. And a lot of them were damned cool accessories, but the stats varied widely. Most chars usually had a joke weapon and a couple of weapons that were pretty OP. But, unless you explicitly wanted to play an Extra mode with stats enabled, they were just cosmetic only. Which was nice because certain weapons had particular goofy sound effects that stayed even during Normal modes.

Then finally, SoulCalibur IV came with online play, and holy crap, they overhauled things. They put in character creation from SCIII (never played that, bleh), and added in tons of different, dare I say, "gear" for your char. Different equipment for all parts of your char (head, arms, chest, legs, feet, etc) as well as different weapons and skills (stat boosts) that you could equip. All equipment had different stats that you use to customize your char's stats to your heart's content. Again, like SCII, some of the loadouts would be kinda OP. But, just like SCII, unless you explicitly wanted to play with these stats enabled (SCIV changed the name to "Special" instead of "Extra"), they were cosmetic only. Which was nice, because... holy shit, character creation!!!

As said, in both SCII and SCIV, outside of the Normal/Standard modes, the stats' balance could vary wildly. And that was the goddamn point. No one plays a "stats matter" mode in any type of multiplayer game for a level playing field; they play to kill lower-ranked players and make fun of them for having inferior stuff. Or to flex their "look at this awesome loot" e-peen. Even outside of the SoulCal series, look at a recent game like Destiny, where the we-really-wanted-to-make-this-fair Crucible online mode was met with a lot of criticism from players of "I spent so much time beating this raid, but this level 17 is owning my level 20 with his superior play rather than grinded-out stats! Waaahhhhh!" The result? Iron Banner, where level does matter, so the grinders can feel their level advantage against lower-skilled players. And the competitive players who want a far more level playing field can choose to just.... not play. Also, look at WoW; they have this as well. The Battleground mode, a clusterfuck with levels varying crazy that no one really took seriously. Versus the Arena mode, the competitive mode which was just the char balance bitchfest that you, reader of TYM, know all too well (sidenote: are Warriors still garbage? Or are they OP again?)

The backlash of Injustice 2 having a Gear system and the impossibility of being able to balance is, yet again, a lack of knowing history. THIS SHIT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE. A LOT. The base character designs will likely be designed by one team, with absolutely no regards to what gear does what. The gear design will be others tweaking stat numbers based on overall level to minimize the likelihood of a gear loadout not being too OP. But even if some stuff ends up OP (which they will be), if you care about competitive fairplay, this should be the last thing on your mind. That's going to be a different mode.

Let the grinders have their fun. You have yours.

 

[Braindead]

Yeah I imagine the gear will simply have a separate mode like Kustom Kombat in MKX which has all the crazy shit.

Remember how before MKX was released the whole faction stuff was being touted as revolutionizing the whole online play and every single online player attributes to the blah blah blah and how it all turned out to be just useless stuff? I imagine all the gear will be the same.

 

[RoGE]

Yeah I sure hope they aren't dumb enough to forcefully enable this in online or offline play. I won't support a game that promotes uneven playing fields in a pvp environment.

Thankfully NRS listens to it's community, I love you guys <3

edit: Also wow @ these new buttons. That's cool.

 

[MadPropz101]

I won't support a game that promotes uneven playing fields in a pvp environment.

MKX?

 

[DementedAggression]

As a whipper-snapper that was in a tizzy, I think this is probably the best post regarding gear I've read, kudos.

Hopefully you're right and NRS doesn't make gear an important aspect of the game, just have it as a kind of gimmick mode. The cosmetic customization should be across all modes though because that's awesome.

 

[Jynks]

TL;DR: SoulCalibur, still one of the biggest FG series of all time, had a stat system, even eventually being playable online. You could play two modes, one with stats on, or one with stats off. And it wasn't a big deal. At all. The end.

Granted I'm not a SolCal expert, but I played one of them (I forget which) to death... and if I remember correctly the "create a soul" feature was purely aesthetic? You chose a character "archetype" and then dressed them as you liked and adjusted there hair and skin and all that.

I remember I made a "Thunder God" based on Astaroth because he had that move where he rams the axe into you after knock down and a lightning bolt hit the axe handle. My version was all blue, with a big beard, no shirt ,.... etc.

It "felt" like a unique character to me, my character and that was awesome.. but I do not remember it being anything but aesthetic changes.

- EDIT -

I got a little off track here, but my original point was to just ask the question... "Wasn't the "Create a Soul" system just aesthetic, it didn't have stats or abilities on the gear, right?"

 

[cfw]

Granted I'm not a SolCal expert, but I played one of them (I forget which) to death... and if I remember correctly the "create a soul" feature was purely aesthetic? You chose a character "archetype" and then dressed them as you liked and adjusted there hair and skin and all that.

I remember I made a "Thunder God" based on Astaroth because he had that move where he rams the axe into you after knock down and a lightning bolt hit the axe handle. My version was all blue, with a big beard, no shirt ,.... etc.

It "felt" like a unique character to me, my character and that was awesome.. but I do not remember it being anything but aesthetic changes.

- EDIT -

I got a little off track here, but my original point was to just ask the question... "Wasn't the "Create a Soul" system just aesthetic, it didn't have stats or abilities on the gear, right?"

OP is talking about Soulcalibur IV and yes, customization had stats in that game.
Even then, the CaS feature in SCIII had it so what ever piece you used would change the personality/what your created character says. And in SCII the extra weapons you get also had stats... or were huge.

 

[Saboteur-6]

I haven't been following reactions here or on social media closely but, I didn't think people were that worried about the gear mechanic. Common sense lends itself to NRS being aware of balance concerns so you're going to be able to just toggle it off but probably keep the aesthetic changes. Like Supergirl's Legendary Mask of Jor El from the trailers looks like it changes her red eye blasts to purple. I'm personally excited about from a viewers perspective since it could lead to some cool grudge match/exhibition matches at tournaments.

 

[d3v]

Balance wasn't the main issue. The main issue is that, just like with Street Fighter X Tekken's gems, people wouldn't be able to play the game at a level playing field and that tournaments would get shafted because not everyone would have all the characters leveled up and the gear unlocked.

 

[MKF30]

Exactly not sure why some are kind of concerned over it, Boon already said they will put in a separate tourney mode or something for competitive gameplay, balance etc

Plus even before WB bought the rights to the MK team, MK etc in KAK back in MKA we had the option to have a KAK rooms only or banned KAK due to the options, user host etc

 

[Jynks]

Exactly not sure why some are kind of concerned over it, Boon already said they will put in a separate tourney mode or something for competitive gameplay, balance et

but this is a terrible idea. If the game actually has moves and abilities linked to gear, then we need a event game mode where you can wear your chosen gear. All they need is a game mode with everything 100% unlocked, but I doubt this will happen.

 

[MKF30]

but this is a terrible idea. If the game actually has moves and abilities linked to gear, then we need a event game mode where you can wear your chosen gear. All they need is a game mode with everything 100% unlocked, but I doubt this will happen.

You kind of lost me with the event game mode thing, Ihe game will let you play your built up character except for one mode(the tournament mode) I don't see how it's a terrible idea I think it's quite logical honestly because it's giving the player options to play in various modes with gear unlocked vs. just barebones no bullshit just straight up no gear, changes etc in a competitive/tourney mode. Not sure how tha's a bad thing.

What would be terrible is if they forced everyone to play with this new gear system, even for tourney and online play but they're not doing that so I'm good.

 

[Jynks]

You kind of lost me with the event game mode thing, Ihe game will let you play your built up character except for one mode(the tournament mode) I don't see how it's a terrible idea

well I think it would be like saying in events like evo or esl for MKx you can only play variationless. The "gear" is this games version of the variation system and as far as I know at this stage going to be integral to making characters viable.

 

[MKF30]

well I think it would be like saying in events like evo or esl for MKx you can only play variationless. The "gear" is this games version of the variation system and as far as I know at this stage going to be integral to making characters viable.

oh like tourney events, thought you meant something else entirely lol like a mode in the game or something. Oh yeah for the gears modes I agree, it's going to be crazy I bet with all that gear armor etc.

The normal mode though for tourneys(Ed said such in one of the interviews forget which) but that they definitely plan on having a separate mode for tournaments, events etc and most likely a separate mode online. I just hope they give us the option to customize the colors without the gear stuff but I doubt it. I'll mention it on their twitters lol see what they say about that, some dont care but guys like me, pig and several others who like to aesthetically modify Batman, Superman, WW, Flash etc. Maybe you'd like that cause you like WW.

 

[Shade667]

well I think it would be like saying in events like evo or esl for MKx you can only play variationless. The "gear" is this games version of the variation system and as far as I know at this stage going to be integral to making characters viable.

I dont think a helmet that boosts my moves damage by 0.1% and makes my hair red is going to make my character viable.

 

[Jynks]

I dont think a helmet that boosts my moves damage by 0.1% and makes my hair red is going to make my character viable.

That is not what it is though.. Yes there are some gear items that change total health, damage reduction and all that, but the much more interesting gear will add completely unique specials, maybe even strings. Basically the gear system idea is that you "build" a custom variation.

I mean would you like to play MKx but every character you have to play in events as variationless?

 

[Jynks]

but guys like me, pig and several others who like to aesthetically modify Batman, Superman, WW, Flash etc. Maybe you'd like that cause you like WW.

I am very much into the idea of aesthetic choices for gear, not so much into gear with "meaning".

I have played MMOs quite a lot as well as my wife is a big FPS player, and both those types of games have struggled for YEARS even decades with the problem of linking gear to abilities. Especially MMOs.

The gear system is basically a "character build" and this is cool, but the problem that a lot of games face with this idea is that everyone eventually has the exact same gear on at all times as the choices for gear are in fact "forced" as you are choosing it for the ability or stat or w/e not for the "look".

The entire idea of "it will be my version of WW" will not happen at all, as EVERY Wonder Woman player will want that crown that gives the lasso more range or what ever the top few builds turns out to be.

Many MMOs got around this by having stats and abilities as effects you "apply" to gear. So you could choose your gear just on aesthetic appeal, and then apply the bonuses you have earn in the game to that gear. This means that there can be huge variety in the player looks suddenly, as players can pick for aesthetics rather than having their choices being dictated by the stats.

I actually really dig the idea of player constructed variations, I think it could be a fantastic idea for a fighting game. Imagine if I could have put on a pair of guns and a head set mic and got Cassie Cage to have insta-AirGuns AND be able to call down rockets!

There is great potential here for players to sculpt the characters abilities and specials to suit their own personal play styles. I need to be more mobile, lets give Aquaman a teleport gear item (at the cost of that gear slot where something else could be) This really excites me, but I am not that keen on seeing everyone look exactly the same as that seams to be the exact opposite of what Boon is talking about.

I know that NOW everyone looks the same, so nothing is really changed but this gear system has opened up the idea of aesthetic choices for the way thing look and is probably the death nail in the entire idea of "skins", but I am not convinced that will be the case, it will most lilly be that you HAVE to use "x" gear as it has the best effect and everyone will look exactly the same.

 

[buyacushun]

Haven't been following TYM but I thought a no gear mode was already confirmed. In which case as long as that's not the NRS backed mode, let them nickle and dime whoever cares about that stuff. Just make sure the game comes out playable enough it won't need obvious patches within a month.

But thanks for reminding everyone "nothing is new under the sun". It seems to be something always forgotten in gaming.

 

[MKF30]

I am very much into the idea of aesthetic choices for gear, not so much into gear with "meaning". I have played MMOs quite a lot as well as my wife is a big FPS player, and both those types of games have struggled for YEARS even decades with the problem of linking gear to abilities. Especially MMOs. The gear system is basically a character build and this is cool, but the problem that a lot of games face with this idea is that everyone eventually has the exact same gear on at all times as the choices for gear are in fact "forced" as you are choosing it for the ability or stat or w/e. The entire idea of "it will be my version of WW" will not happen at all, as EVERY Wonder Woman player will want that crown that gives you the lasso more range or what ever the top few builds turns out to be.

Many MMOs got around this by having stats and abilities as effects you "apply" to gear. So you could choose your gear just on aesthetic appeal, and then apply the bonuses you have earn in the game to that gear. This meant that there was huge variety in the player looks suddenly.

I actually really dig the idea of player constructed variations, I actually think it could be a fantastic idea for a fighting game. Imagine if I could have put on a pair of guns and a head set mic and got Cassie Cage to have insta-AirGuns AND be able to call down rockets! There is great potential here for players to sculpt the characters abilities and specials to suit their own personal play styles, and this really excites me but I am not that keen on seeing everyone look exactly the same as that seams to be the exact opposite of what Boon is talking about. I know that NOW everyone looks the same, but this gear system has opened up the idea of aesthetic choices for the way thins look, but I am not convinced that will be the case, it will most lilly be that you HAVE to use "x" gear as it has the best effect and everyone will look exactly the same.

Yeah it seems they're trying something newer out here but guess time will tell to see how well it's received you know? Well I'm sure eventually you'll see two similar WWs but for a while probably not and we also dont know the limit I remember Boon said around the thousands of pieces that's a lot so there could be indeed lots of different characters, depending on style too, maybe a zoner would like the lasso extra range but rushdown player may not care much for that and want more damage on up close moves you know? We'll have to wait and see honestly, a lot of it will depend on how much gear exactly, how balanced etc But yeah on the aesthetic options that I believe will definitely be unique depending on the depth, if it's just trim presets though ehh it won't be that deep sadly but I mean taking parts of the costume like gloves, boots, colars separate from the body costume of say Superman and then S crest separately, cape, belt etc, etc

Of course things can change one way or another since we have a lot of time a year or maybe little under til this game hits so lots of things can change, but I think the thing that will make a big difference is gear amount(3000 vs. say 30,000 gear pieces makes a big difference) and color options as far as looking the same, aesthetically I don't foresee many characters looking the same options pending if it's trim presets we'll probably see more similar looking versions of characters but if it's more free like full palette a la color your racing car or MKA's KAK then we'll see some unique shit (not counting the barebones tourney mode no gears allowed) But I do hope the aesthetic options are across ALL modes at least. Like for online gear modes, have normal costumes without gear upgrades, have a customized aesthetic option of that character you made(ie a Black and Silver Superman for example but gameplay wise no upgrades of course) But yeah man we'll just have to wait and see, hopefully as time goes on and we get NRS streams we can see literally just how much gear pieces the game will offer and color options.

 

[DementedAggression]

That is not what it is though.. Yes there are some gear items that change total health, damage reduction and all that, but the much more interesting gear will add completely unique specials, maybe even strings. Basically the gear system idea is that you "build" a custom variation.

I mean would you like to play MKx but every character you have to play in events as variationless?

I see where you're coming from, I was under the impression that the gear system would be like the variation system from MKX as well.

The more I think about it though, and the more that gets revealed about the game, I don't really see it becoming like variations. It would be a massive mistake to have specific, potentially game changing special moves and strings tied to the gear for one reason: you get gear through random drops.

Considering Boon has said that there will apparently be 'thousands and thousands' of pieces of gear per character (how accurate this is remains to be seen) then by numbers alone it will be highly unlikely that you will be unlocking new moves and strings often unless each character has 500 special moves and strings that need to be unlocked.

To use the MKX example this would akin to playing Mileena, starting off only being able to play her variationless, then randomly after 200 games unlocking her b12 string, then 50 games later unlocking low sai. I just don't see it happening like this.

If it does turn out like that though then the solution, as you said, is to have a mode/DLC where every piece of gear is unlocked which I doubt will happen, as it will make the 'Level Up' system completely redundant and potentially force anyone who takes the game remotely seriously spend more money after buying it.

My prediction is that gear will be pretty much 100% stat based, and if there do end up being special moves/strings that are unlocked with gear then they will not be in any way integral to the character's gameplan; I mean the gear we have seen so far has hardly been game changing (oooh a 4.78% increase to trident damage when under 1% health).

Hopefully the 'tournament mode' that Boon has spoken about keeps the gear for aesthetic purposes and other than that your character is completely stock, and the mode where gear and levels change stats/moves is not taken seriously at all past casual matches/messing around with friends.

 

[d3v]

That is not what it is though.. Yes there are some gear items that change total health, damage reduction and all that, but the much more interesting gear will add completely unique specials, maybe even strings. Basically the gear system idea is that you "build" a custom variation.

I mean would you like to play MKx but every character you have to play in events as variationless?

I don't recall anything being said about special moves being tied to gear. All we've heard so far indicates that gear just boosts stats and adds properties. We haven't heard anything indicating that they actually lock moves behind gear (this also goes against what they're saying with having returning characters play like they did in the first game).

 

[Jynks]

I don't recall anything being said about special moves being tied to gear.

Um.. I do not know what to say to that as it is all over the e3 videos. There are stat booting gear and gear that adds entire new moves.. this may even mean new strings.

 

[d3v]

Um.. I do not know what to say to that as it is all over the e3 videos. There are stat booting gear and gear that adds entire new moves.. this may even mean new strings.

None of which are in the gameplay videos.

And I don't recall anyone's who's actually played the game saying anything about it either.

 

[Jynks]

And I don't recall anyone's who's actually played the game saying anything about it either.

then you haven't paid attention to the Boon interviews or other major TYM video makers.

 

[d3v]

then you haven't paid attention to the Boon interviews or other major TYM video makers.

And where exactly was it stated that moves and strings would be hidden behind gear?

Heck, even your own posts state that it's an "if".

If the game actually has moves and abilities linked to gear, then we need a event game mode where you can wear your chosen gear.