Initial MkX Tournaments and seeding.

Chaosphere said:

I would imagine that we would just start seeding after the first road to evo event. Only the road to evo tourneys would be used to award seeding points up until Evo, after that we'd have to figure out our own methods of seeding.

Click to expand...

I don't know if I can agree with one good tournament performance in the early stages guaranteeing a seed. Especially in the games infancy. Why not keep it random until after Evo when we can factor in consistancy and the holy grail of FGC championships? My absolute strict cut off would be after evo. After that, seeds would be necessary and valid.

Lets take your scenario. During the first road to evo event, we get a great top 8. Out of those players only 3-4 travel to the next road to evo event. Are they guaranteed a seed in their second tournament in a new region?

I was thinking of using tournaments before TCW as a basis to get top seeds for the tournament. NWM, SoCal, KIT, Combo Breaker, and I was even thinking of using larger regionals like AJ's paradise Found and other things to help build points to get at least a top 16 feel, rest being completely random only seperated by location

Mr Aqua said:

I was thinking of using tournaments before TCW as a basis to get top seeds for the tournament. NWM, SoCal, KIT, Combo Breaker, and I was even thinking of using larger regionals like AJ's paradise Found and other things to help build points to get at least a top 16 feel, rest being completely random only seperated by location

Click to expand...

Pre-reg seeding only perhaps?

GGA 16 Bit said:

I have two questions that need to be answered. I am not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're just two questions that have to be answered honestly.

1. Is it ok for Sonic Fox and REO to play first round at the first major?

2. Is it ok for the winner of Combo Breaker to fight the winner of the Common Wealth first round at CEO?

Click to expand...

I have mulled this issue over and over in my head, and no matter how you slice it, I've realized that there are two possible outcomes:

1) No seeding -- this it the most "fair" option, giving everyone an equal chance and making French Revolutionists happy
2) What the heck, seed em' anyway -- this will probably lead to the best *tournament* experience. Say what you will, but having a gang of top-level players shoved into a pool, and a bunch of people who've never played a fighting game before and bought MKX for Scorpion skins in their own pool, doesn't make any sense. It might be 'fair' if it happens randomly; but will it make for a good tournament? Probably not.

So here we are; on the precipice of one of those age-old socio-political dilemmas; do you give the people what they want? Or do you give them what might be better for them? Do we crusade in the name of apparent fairness, or do we cast our lot with trying to opt for a (probably) better experience all around?

This is really hard, and I'm not sure I'd be able to make the call. But it's worth thinking hard about.

TakeAChance said:

I don't know if I can agree with one good tournament performance in the early stages guaranteeing a seed. Especially in the games infancy. Why not keep it random until after Evo when we can factor in consistancy and the holy grail of FGC championships? My absolute strict cut off would be after evo. After that, seeds would be necessary and valid.

Lets take your scenario. During the first road to evo event, we get a great top 8. Out of those players only 3-4 travel to the next road to evo event. Are they guaranteed a seed in their second tournament in a new region?

Click to expand...

Then they don't travel and only get to use their seeding points for tournaments that they DO travel to. Seeding points are accumulated, right? They don't just apply to the next tournament and disappear.

GGA 16 Bit said:

Is it ok for the winner of Combo Breaker to fight the winner of the Common Wealth first round at CEO?

Click to expand...

Is it OK for the winner of Combo Breaker to fight me the first round?
Give everyone a chance to go two and out.


I realize thathe seeding to push big-name matches later in the tournament does make for a more exciting Sunday, but it is absolutely special treatment so it should not be the only objective. Especially when seeding is so nebulous.

CrimsonShadow said:

So here we are; on the precipice of one of those age-old socio-political dilemmas; do you give the people what they want? Or do you give them what might be better for them? Do we crusade in the name of apparent fairness, or do we cast our lot with trying to opt for a (probably) better experience all around?

This is really hard, and I'm not sure I'd be able to make the call. But it's worth thinking hard about.

Click to expand...

At the risk of the usual forum blowup on a mod for daring to post (its inevitable, I can feel it coming already);

This exact reason is why ECT was removed from the Capcom Cup. You don't mess with brackets once the tournament is started, nor do you mess with brackets in a new game where nobody has proven themselves just so you can please the masses of viewers and the tournament players who are assumed to have the potential to do well in a brand new game that nobody has competed in.

MKX is not MK9 or Injustice. As much of a friend as he is to me, I do not expect @R.E.O. to automatically be good at Street Fighter V, nor would I immediately assume that because he's good at one game that he'd be deserving of a seed in SFV.

Likewise, Justin Wong would not automatically be seeded in an MK game just because he's good at Street Fighter.

Do it the age old way and start off a new game by separating by region, then randomly placed within their pools. Might there be a few 1st round matches that would have been quarter-finals or semi-finals in an MK9 or Injustice tournament? Possibly, but who's to say that MKX won't be different enough that the "usual suspects" might have as difficult a learning curve as some fresh blood? Not worth taking that chance and being that unfair to players who paid the same amount of money to enter the same tournament as the "usual suspects".

Play it fair in the first tournament, seed the top 4 in tournament 2, top 8 in tournament 3... that's how you do it.

Braindead said:

I think clean slate is a no-brainer. We saw how in Injustice the regular top 8 placers were waaaaaaaaaay different than the MK9 top 8 placers.

MKX is a new game and different from both. It makes zero sense to seed players on their placement in one of the previous games.

Click to expand...

When you think about Injustice though, you probably could have called 80-90% of them. People who placed high early on:

Tom Brady -- Was a top MK9 and DoA player and atester
Reo -- Was a top MK9 and MK3D player and a tester
Slips -- Was a top MK9 player
Woundcowboy -- Was a top MK9 player
KDZ -- Was a top Soul Calibur player
Chris G -- Was a top everything player, and a tester
Sabin -- Was very good at MK9 for a while, is very good at SF, and was a tester
Forever King -- Was a top MK9 player
CD Jr. -- Was a top MK9 player
Crazy Dominican -- Was a top MK9 player
Dizzy -- Was a top MK9 player
(NerdJosh -- Won Cross Assault and was a tester.. Hehe)
etc.

So the main exceptions would be a tiny handful of people: Mr. Aquaman, Godspeed, etc. But even most of the 'surprises' were at least mid-level players in either MK9 or some other top FGC game.

Again, this isn't to say that everyone should definitely be seeded, but I think we'd be kidding ourselves to not admit that the overwhelming majority of top placers in early Injustice tournaments were people you'd expect to be there (and that was in a completely new franchise, not a Mortal Kombat game).

The inevitable conundrum, as has been pointed out already, is that there is no real way to gauge who should deserve seeding at the start of a new game. Most sports, when preparing to seed teams/players, do so with months of results on hand, or they have a method to measure seeds at the start of a season. Unfortunately, we're not playing the same game of Basketball this time around; it's a completely different game.

My initial gut reaction is to do it with a clean slate, and wait until there is some verifiable data to determine a seed. You often saw this in the Injustice era, where players would lose their minds on TO's for seeding and bracket issues that were taking into account many rounds of play (Pig, I'm looking at you). I'm not buying into the Shock/Summoning "Back in MY day" bull, but I really just don't think it's right to seed based on a previous entry in an unrelated series. Even if we were to do it by MK9 standards, why? That's ancient history by now, with many of the players considered super top have either faded from previous wins or simply not competed in a long time.

I can understand completely the need to make an exciting tournament by not having the big names eliminated early, or to have someone kind of float through, but at this point who can really determine what is a free bracket? We have no data. Can you make the argument as to what an easy bracket would be, based on prior game experience? Absolutely you could, and you might not be wrong, but again, there's no data to properly enhance that opinion. Otherwise, we cave in to the elitism that so many are accused of, and I simply don't think it's right at this point in time. Get some data, analyze that data, then make your decision.

GGA 16 Bit said:

1. Is it ok for Sonic Fox and REO to play first round at the first major?

Click to expand...

9.95 said:

Do it the age old way and start off a new game by separating by region, then randomly placed within their pools. Might there be a few 1st round matches that would have been quarter-finals or semi-finals in an MK9 or Injustice tournament? Possibly, but who's to say that MKX won't be different enough that the "usual suspects" might have as difficult a learning curve as some fresh blood? Not worth taking that chance and being that unfair to players who paid the same amount of money to enter the same tournament as the "usual suspects".

Click to expand...

Pretty much this. I would almost say put an emphasis on regional separation for the first two or three significant tournaments first, before you even start figuring out seeding. But that's only my opinion.

God I hate how obsessed people are with Seeding now

CrimsonShadow said:

I have mulled this issue over and over in my head, and no matter how you slice it, I've realized that there are two possible outcomes:

1) No seeding -- this it the most "fair" option, giving everyone an equal chance and making French Revolutionists happy
2) What the heck, seed em' anyway -- this will probably lead to the best *tournament* experience. Say what you will, but having a gang of top-level players shoved into a pool, and a bunch of people who've never played a fighting game before and bought MKX for Scorpion skins in their own pool, doesn't make any sense. It might be 'fair' if it happens randomly; but will it make for a good tournament? Probably not.

So here we are; on the precipice of one of those age-old socio-political dilemmas; do you give the people what they want? Or do you give them what might be better for them? Do we crusade in the name of apparent fairness, or do we cast our lot with trying to opt for a (probably) better experience all around?

This is really hard, and I'm not sure I'd be able to make the call. But it's worth thinking hard about.

Click to expand...

Seeding is needed once seeds are established. That I think we can both agree on, and they are deserved.

However, in a games infancy, how do we determine seed? Is it fair to just randomly pick who we think is good and give them an advantage in tournament?

Who gets the seeds? Is it the old MK9 vets? The more recent Injustice players? A combo?

The dilemma here isn't seeding, it's EARLY seeding.

Long as the seeding looks logical by location and clan mates if applied.

What does hunter think about throwing seeds around willy nilly.

DarthArma said:

What does hunter think about throwing seeds around willy nilly.

Click to expand...

Omg,

DarthArma said:

What does hunter think about throwing seeds around willy nilly.

Click to expand...

I wish that had "EVERYONE GETS A SEED" in text in front of it lol

RTM2004 said:

Long as the seeding looks logical by location and clan mates if applied.

Click to expand...

Why should Clans get anything Seeding lol

Also, damn you guys are forgetting about toryuken

You can only seed from previous tournament placings for the game... so there will be a clean slate for MKX.

In April 2011 I purchased MK9. I knew Nothing of this Website, or the Top players on it. I was just a guy who loved fighting games and had been playing MK since the original arcade release. I played a lot online, and every Monday my friends and I got together for offline sessions we called "Mortal Mondays".

In June 2011 a friend of mine suggested I attend a tournament called "East Coast Throwdown 3". I said sure why not, sounds like a good time and I love competition.

I finished 4th behind REO, Chris G and Michaelangelo.

The moral of the story is, have fun, do your best, stop reading so deep into brackets and if you're good you're good, you going to have to go through good players no matter what.

CrimsonShadow said:

When you think about Injustice though, you probably could have called 80-90% of them. People who placed high early on:

Tom Brady -- Was a top MK9 and DoA player and atester
Reo -- Was a top MK9 and MK3D player and a tester
Slips -- Was a top MK9 player
Woundcowboy -- Was a top MK9 player
KDZ -- Was a top Soul Calibur player
Chris G -- Was a top everything player, and a tester
Sabin -- Was very good at MK9 for a while, is very good at SF, and was a tester
Forever King -- Was a top MK9 player
CD Jr. -- Was a top MK9 player
Crazy Dominican -- Was a top MK9 player
Dizzy -- Was a top MK9 player
(NerdJosh -- Won Cross Assault and was a tester.. Hehe)
etc.

So the main exceptions would be a tiny handful of people: Mr. Aquaman, Godspeed, etc. But even most of the 'surprises' were at least mid-level players in either MK9 or some other top FGC game.

Again, this isn't to say that everyone should definitely be seeded, but I think we'd be kidding ourselves to not admit that the overwhelming majority of top placers in early Injustice tournaments were people you'd expect to be there (and that was in a completely new franchise, not a Mortal Kombat game).

Click to expand...

At the same time, there were players who were very good in MK9 who were not doing well in injustice early on. Would you have felt right to seed Curbo, Death, Showtime, Dave, etc at the start of Injustice just because of mk9 accomplishments?

I don't think there should be seeds but then again lets be reasonable. We don't want to see one pool with Chris g tyrant they and honeybee all in it

Why should there be seeding for anew game? The only thing that has to be addressed is banning all the long term testers for at LEAST 3 months. It'll be like injustice and mk9 all over again.

GGA 16 Bit said:

I have two questions that need to be answered. I am not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're just two questions that have to be answered honestly.

1. Is it ok for Sonic Fox and REO to play first round at the first major?

2. Is it ok for the winner of Combo Breaker to fight the winner of the Common Wealth first round at CEO?

Click to expand...

Exactly. No one wants Venus and Serena or Roger and Rafael to play 2nd or 3rd round at Wimbledon, regardless of how their season is going.

GGA 16 Bit said:

I have two questions that need to be answered. I am not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're just two questions that have to be answered honestly.

1. Is it ok for Sonic Fox and REO to play first round at the first major?

2. Is it ok for the winner of Combo Breaker to fight the winner of the Common Wealth first round at CEO?

Click to expand...

For #1, during the first tourneys, I say yes...but I assure you this one won't happen.