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The Argument Against Variation Lock

Paul the Octopus

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Jim said:
The point of character lock is the winner must stick with their set of tools. What difference does it make if those tools change based on the character or the variant selected? Your rules won't promote 5-5s they promote sitting and constantly guessing what variant the loser is going to go with based on what variant you go with. You don't want boring tournaments like Aquaman vs Catwoman? Well you probably don't want boring tournaments of select screen vs stream time. This will not make matches more exciting, it will cluster fuck tournaments.

The only reason you are saying this should be allowed is because of the way it is selected. If the game play were identical but Sub-Zero had three faces at the character select we'd all call it character lock to Sub-Zero - Unbreakable and leave it at that. So how does the loser picking a new character or variant to deal with that particular Sub-Zero differ in anyway than picking a new character to deal with a character like we did in MK9 and IGAU?

You also didn't address another element this brings in. Does simply switching the stage by the loser allow the winner to change variants or not? Not huge but another factor.

If you honestly think people will know and understand these rules for tournaments you are very badly mistaken. I had to explain the stage select rules for IGAU to opponent this weekend when he selected his own stage.

Also to the guy saying wait until it comes out. Hell no. We are going to be doing release day tournaments for this. Lets have the rules in place from the get go. There will not be a magic new ruling from Paulo that will make us go 'Oh ok now we have our rules'.
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Thanks for your thoughts. Not sure why you're getting so worked up though.

To respond to yours points:
- I'll give you an example of how this would promote more even matchups. I'm going to use Injustice rather than MKX since the latter isn't out yet, and I will have to be a little creative (use hypotheticals) since there are obviously no variations in Injustice. Let's agree that Sinestro's worst two matchups are aquaman (3-7) and martian manhunter (4-6). Don't debate me on the exact numbers or matchup details please - it's irrelevant. Let's say AM's best tool in his matchup is meter burn trident rush for chip and MMH's best tool is the OH teleport to negate zoning (again, not important if you agree on my depiction of the matchup, it's just an example). If Sinestro had a variation that negated chip damage, then AM's main tool would be negated, and that matchup would no longer be a 3-7. My opponent's best counterpicking option is now a 6-4 MMH matchup or a trident rush-less AM matchup, which may be 6-4 as well at that point. This won't work in all cases obviously - in some cases, variation switches won't help at all. I'm arguing that, at worst, this method will be the same as the standard practice. And in some (hopefully a decent amount of cases) it's better.
- I am not sure why this would cause tournaments to become unbearably slow, or be very hard to understand. As I mentioned, there are bigger games with more complicated rules that run fine.
- I'm not sure about what the best stage rule is, so I didn't suggest anything.
- I understand that in the past the convention is that "winner must stick with their tools." However, I don't see why that's inherently good and we shouldn't do something just because we've always done it, if there is a better way. You could be right here - happy to hear why this is better.
 
Paul the Octopus

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Pterodactyl said:
That's an unfair comparison seeing as how Ryu is one out of the only two characters with "variations" in that game, and even then the differences between those characters are much broader and drastic than most of the variation we've seen so far, as they change more than just special moves and a few string behaviors.

Here it'd be more like Raiden switching to displacer after winning, while the Kotal switches to sun god after losing. This eliminates a straight counter pick, but still gives the loser the ability to pick someone they think would be better suited to face the winner's character in general.

Fully blind on the winner's side, partially blind on the loser's.

Picking a variation and picking an entirely different character are not the same at all, as variations are tied to an unchanging base and only augment certain things. Raiden may be able to do different types of teleports in Displacer and not in Master of Storms, but both share the same normals, jump, walk and dash speed, x-ray, strings(though some variations add to these), and even a few special moves.
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I agree with you. I didn't respond because he seems like a troll and I thought it'd be a waste of time. Added to my ignore list instead.
 
WakeUp DP

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
EMPEROR PRYCE said:
Winner should have to keep variation in character, thats kinda why the loser gets to pick a character, to counter pick.

Lets take 2 other popular fighting games with mechanics deeper than a simple "character select"

UMVC3 and Usf4

In marvel, lets assume you play a phoenix team, Magneto/Doom/Phoenix. It's a traditional zoning team with strong mobility and incoming mix up pressure. Normally, you'll want to play Doom Plasma beam assist to keep horizontal ground movement on lock. To keep this simple, you'll want a lockdown/mixup team to counter pick (Zero May Cry for example). Now lets assume you win as phoenix and your opponent counter picks with a zoning team. You have to keep your assist, no picking Doom missiles to counter zone. you must keep your assists/tools, you won so there is no reason to justify switching until you lose and prove u need the counter pick.

In USF4 u must keep your Ultra selection unless you lose. In that game, the ultra choice can literally change the matchup. I'd go into depth, but I know marvel a lot better lmao
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This exactly. But I guess the OP will respond this with a "yeah but this isnt marvel" bra! lol
 
cyke_out

cyke_out

Noob
MK Trickylizard said:
Haha no it doesnt.
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Haha, yes it does.

http://shoryuken.com/evo-player-guide/evo-additional-rules/

Ultra Street Fighter IV
  • Game version: US Xbox 360
  • Game Settings: Versus Mode, 99 Seconds, 2/3 Rounds, 2/3 Games, No Handicap
  • The top 8 competitors will play 3/5 Matches.
  • If the players do not agree on a stage within 15 seconds, the match will be random stage select.
  • Winner may change ultra (only if opponent changes characters), but has to pick ultra first after loser picks character.
 
Ram

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
How about something a little different, where characters are locked-in for a set of matches, and only variations can be changed?
So let's say two people are playing a 2/3 set. Before the first game, Player 1 chooses Cryomancer Sub-Zero and Player 2 chooses Summoner Quan Chi. Player 1 wins, and Player 2 goes to character select to switch to Warlock Quan Chi. Then, Player 2 wins, and Player 1 goes to character select to switch to Grandmaster Sub-zero and wins. The point here is that Player 1 could only switch between Sub-zero's variations, and Player 2 could only switch between Quan Chi's variations (loser gets to switch variations while winner is locked to current variation).
 
The Highlander

The Highlander

There can be only one
Chuckychuck said:
Too complicated.

Simpler method is something like this:

1. Looser may select stage and character re-select.
2. Winner must choose same character but may re-select variation (blind).
2. Looser may re-select character and variation (blind).

The reasoning behind my suggested method is because it will promote character specialty and especially balanced characters while still allowing players to counter-pick by character except it won't be a hard counter. So in this kind of system characters will be more balanced characters and less susceptible to specific hard counter-picks (character and variation combo counter-pick). If the winner cannot re-select a variation (blind pick) then we will end up with hard counter-picks where character A variation B is the most obvious strongest counter-pick to a rushdown character and character C variation C is the most obvious strongest counter-pick to a zoner and the like.
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Loser shouldn't pick stage. With interactables being a factor it should be double random again.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
It's simple really. Blind pick first match, character and variation. If loser changes character, winner can change variation but has to pick his/her variation first.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this ruling.
 
WakeUp DP

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Juggs said:
It's simple really. Blind pick first match, character and variation. If loser changes character, winner can change variation but has to pick his/her variation first.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this ruling.
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Well when variations play like complete dif chars there is...
 
Jack Burton

Jack Burton

Noob
I was under the impression from NRS that variations as a game mechanic was to promote counter picking for character specialists and break from the status quo. I don't see how having the winner locked with their winning character and variation is supposed to be any different from the what going on today. If the winner is locked in character and variation then why bother having variations?

I know this example isn't exactly the same as for MKX, but I've played in KOF tournaments and it's only character lock for the winner, but order is not locked and those tournaments run fine.
 
haketh

haketh

Noob
Juggs said:
It's simple really. Blind pick first match, character and variation. If loser changes character, winner can change variation but has to pick his/her variation first.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this ruling.
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Exactly what we did with Melty Blood
 
E

Eji1700

Noob
trufenix said:
@Paul the Octopus
Should Ryu mains be allowed to switch to Evil Ryu after winning? Why/Why Not? Please show your work.
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Bingo.

Variations are in that middle valley where it doesn't look like it's just choosing a different ultra, but basically a totally new character, and I worry about what this would do to the meta.

For the competitive here- if you played a tournament where, on win, you could change to one of 2 other pre determined characters(your secondary and your third) and on loss standard "pick anything", would you ever only main one character?

So for this, it seems like you're saying 'you can change character on win, but ONLY to one of these 2', which means that you can't ever have someone just main grandmaster sub or portal 2 quan chi, but instead are essentially REQUIRED to learn all 3, otherwise you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. It also means that if you want a sub, quan, and scorp, you need to learn moves and matchups for potentially 9 characters, again otherwise you're at a disadvantage. I like counterpicking and I like encouraging it, but this feels like too much, and depending on how hard it is to master styles, could actually limit who you want to learn(as the ability to adjust pick on win is just too much to give up).

I could maybe see the changes not being substantial enough that it would be fine, but really from what we've already seen...i doubt that.
 
WakeUp DP

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Juggs said:
I don't think they are "completely different characters", they are the same characters that are played differently. But you know which variation they will choose and which character, that is the losers advantage.
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Wonder why on UMVC3 you cant switch assists and chars orders?

What the developers want of their game has nothing to do with how it should normaly work.

Nrs hates zoning, aaing, and counter picking? So what? Its what its. Fighting games have counter picks and bad MUs. Dont like it dont play it.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
MK Trickylizard said:
Wonder why on UMVC3 you cant switch assists and chars orders?

What the developers want of their game has nothing to do with how it should normaly work.

Nrs hates zoning, aaing, and counter picking? So what? Its what its. Fighting games have counter picks and bad MUs. Dont like it dont play it.
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Not sure I understand why this post was quoting mine. :confused:
 
BRUTALITY

BRUTALITY

Banned
GGA Max said:
I might be starting to like this. I'm glad someone really spelled it out for people like me who didn't understand this POV.

4 steps may be too complicated for some people though.

It could delay tournaments if the loser expects the winner to chose character and variation first. And the winner would have to call the TO over to verify the rules.
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too hard for a fucking idiot
 
Konqrr

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Look guys, this is the equivalent of switching Ultras in SFIV in a tournament setting. You can only change your ultra after you win if your opponent changes characters or their ultra. It's the only thing that makes sense in a serious tournament setting.

Changing your variation when you win whether or not your opponent changes anything is the equivalent to you changing your character after you win.

Every other serious fighting game community would read this thread and scoff at us.
 
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