Sonya is a top 3 character

[ViciousShogun]

I've been saying this for months...NOW its valid.

 

[M2Dave]

Why aren't you using Sonya as an ALT. Shes the PERFECT alt for Freddy. I remember reading and you saying that Freddys bad MUs are Mileena, Smoke, Raiden and Kung Lao. Sonya beats all of them and goes Even with Smoke.

True, but I'm already using Jax as my secondary character and I've already played a lot of games. Jax should go even or better against all of those characters, but Cage and Sonya, on the other hand, are tough as fuck. I feel very comfortable with his GP cancels as a former Dairou player.

 

[KingHippo]

m2dave The problem I have with that statement is that it's nice to have a very solid rushdown game but her rushdown game, much like Cage's, is not infallible. There are going to be gaps, and it's at that point where characters with solid "get away from me" moves are going to shine. Whenever I play Morty with Freddy or Kenshi, yeah, I'm pretty scared when she is able to close the gap, but at the same time, being patient and knowing where the gap in the offense is is good knowledge to have.

Like I can't say with a straight face that Sonya goes even because eventually she's going to get in, because I know Kenshi up close has options to get away. Same with Freddy. Same with Smoke. And then we're back to being mid to full screen and bullying her with projectiles that she has very little ways around other than dash block. When the match up consists of catching the other character for her, it's pretty easy to see why that's a losing matchup.

I don't think straight out zoning with projectiles is strong; Keepaway and Runaway are though, and I think that's where Sonya struggles against what is considered her losing matchups. Except Kung Lao. He's free lol

 

[salvificblood]

m2dave The problem I have with that statement is that it's nice to have a very solid rushdown game but her rushdown game, much like Cage's, is not infallible. There are going to be gaps, and it's at that point where characters with solid "get away from me" moves are going to shine. Whenever I play Morty with Freddy or Kenshi, yeah, I'm pretty scared when she is able to close the gap, but at the same time, being patient and knowing where the gap in the offense is is good knowledge to have.

Like I can't say with a straight face that Sonya goes even because eventually she's going to get in, because I know Kenshi up close has options to get away. Same with Freddy. Same with Smoke. And then we're back to being mid to full screen and bullying her with projectiles that she has very little ways around other than dash block. When the match up consists of catching the other character for her, it's pretty easy to see why that's a losing matchup.

I don't think straight out zoning with projectiles is strong; Keepaway and Runaway are though, and I think that's where Sonya struggles against what is considered her losing matchups. Except Kung Lao. He's free lol

People who have solid spacing and footsies will not have as much of a problem with this as you think. Knowing the range of Kenshi's spirit charge is important. The Sonya player can sit just outside it and then dash into d4 ms shenanigans. She does a lot of damage for touching you once, plus she gets free mindgames with the reset. You won't always have meter to armour your way out because she can make you use breaker due to her high damage... There are probably lots of other things to mention, too, but I don't play Sonya, these are just my observations of the matchup.

 

[Error]

What did they fix on her EX Cartwheel exactly? I thought the armor would randomly not activate at times, so they made it more consistent.

 

[Lulzlou]

From the short time of me being here (3months), I've realized these threads never go anywhere. Everyone argues on theory and there is never actual facts. Although a lot of the time the wrong person is just too stubborn to admit it.

What I think should happen is have 2 high level players play each other. Don't play online and don't be lame about traveling. The best way in my opinion is to record a match on the side during a tournament/event, even if its terrible quality. Don't explain yourself or complain during these matches. Make it best of 3, 5 or 7. When that is done go back and watch it; explain where you are right and they are wrong. If you try to explain during match, you are just giving the other person time to expect it 100%.

But what am I to you guys? A scrub or a noob that doesn't know anything. I hope people set there ego aside and get shit done. We are going to evolve game play wise really slowly if its only theory arguments. It would be good to see visual info + a breakdown of the match. The more info the community has the better.

 

[NogunYesknife]

Sonya = Number 1 or 2 in the game. Amazing zoning for a rush-down char, best pokes in the game by fay, Too many options, etc, Its almost like fighting prepatch KL

 

[Peckapowa]

people who dont think sonya isnt broken havent fought foxy or curbo yet. theres a couple others who might change ur mind

 

[Spirit Guide]

I've always known this!

 

[M2Dave]

KingHippo, assuming the opponent is full screen away, block-dashing once and jumping forward already puts Sonya at max range d+4. What else do you want? You have an armor move too. At least Johnny Cage actually has to be in your face to initiate offense.

Again, zoning is overrated in this game. While it is definitely the go to strategy in some match ups, if you only zone, you will corner yourself and die. Why do you think REO's Kabal was losing badly to CD Jr.'s Jax until he stopped spamming fireballs by implementing a more footsies oriented game? However, footsies are much easier to play against Jax than they are against Sonya because of d+4 xx MS f+1 and dive kick.

 

[KingHippo]

I'm starting to think that when someone says "zoning" you are thinking of a person standing in place hurling projectile after projectile. If so, I apologize, and will henceforth refer to what I'm talking about as keepaway. Maybe that will put some perspective on it.

Whenever I've played Morty (Sonya of America and I know he agrees with me), I know what I have to watch out for, which is d4. As long as I can stay at the range where he whiffs it if he tries it, I get a shoulder barge and he's back to full screen. Meanwhile, he has to fight through an army of strong projectiles and has no chance of firing one back because I have reflect. Now he can stay right at shoulder barge range and do dash in punish if he wants to as mentioned above, but he can't initiate offense from there without jumping and you don't wanna jump at Kenshi. If I ever cornered myself, not a problem, she doesn't really do a lot of damage off of D4 xx MS, so I'm not really worried I have built up a lot of meter at this point and I'm just going to wait until she wittles her way into D4 range and I'm just going to keep barging until he dashes in and D4s, at which point my armor wins.

Now this is not hopeless for Sonya: if I don't have meter I'm up a creek without a paddle. I also have to be weary of counter-poking up close because of dive kick, you are right. However, if the matchup only swings for Sonya when I don't have meter (rare) and she can only play a single facet of her game, I believe that's a losing matchup. I'm sure of it, actually.

I have really long stages so as to keep walking back and forth, a very fast walkspeed to get away should I land an EX Rising Karma, and a reflect to stop any silly projectile she throws. I'm playing keepaway at its finest, and Sonya clearly has an issue there. That's why I can see why she'd lose to a decent handful of characters because they have the same ability of having decent ways to put screen length between themselves and Sonya.

 

[THTB]

First off, let's correct some terms here lol. I know what you guys mean by zoning, but zoning in the literal sense is positioning yourself in a favorable zone. ALL characters technically zone, whether it's staying in your face or staying a full screen away.

Sorry, that just irks me lol.

Straight up keepaway is overrated, yes. Excluding Reptile, generic forward movement is way too good, and truthfully, projectiles are pretty ass in comparison to other 2D fighters. You cannot win in this game by playing from a full screen. Realistically, you have to make a ton of good reads to do so, and at times take risks by being in an opponent's face to set up a push back to full screen. But footsies in this game is pretty damn amazing. Sonya benefits HEAVILY by having extremely good normals in general and a movement system that makes it hard for keepaway characters, period, and the fact that only a small number of characters actually give her problems footsies-wise.

Honestly, Sonya is probably the best character in the game...better than Kabal (Yeah, I do believe this, but really by a small margin).

 

[Peckapowa]

.

Honestly, Sonya is probably the best character in the game...better than Kabal (Yeah, I do believe this, but really by a small margin).

a reptile player would say that

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

Agree with everything and I also think shes in the top 5. But her going even with Freddy and Kenshi is crazy talk.

Also, zoning is overrated but not when you main freddy or kenshi. Characters like Kitana, mileena, noob, liu kang etc. Essentially characters with IA projectile are are overrated because you can dash block your way in and/or sit on life leads cuz they dont chip. And characters like Noob recovery on his projectiles is shit. But zoning characters like kenshi/Freddy is amazing. Safe armor. Safe zoning. Frame traps from full screen.

Zoning from Kenshi and Freddy is not overrated at all. Those characters can win MUs just off zoning alone.

Death ull be surprized, Pig hates sonya he can tell u. Sonya is ridiculous and ik u just started playing her last month but u havent found everything there is to sonya yet. She has the craziest pressure and mixups in the game its not even funny and they are mostly safe. People dont realize what potential she has because everyone is into the smoke resets, kabal iagb+ndc pressures, and cyrax resets. Some know what shes capable of but shes almost broken IMO. I still havent found a good match against her because they are all too risky against sonya cuz of her tools.

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

i feel another "Jax" moment going on, hopefully it doesn't take 5 months to for people to figure out a character this time

there is almost no reason to ever block the second hit of MS-F1, D4 MS links can be easily interrupted if D4 is blocked. cartwheel gets blown up on read by walking back or NJPs. Dive kicks are fully punishable (please spam them). she has no safe momentum move. Average projectile. high hitting strings/slow mid hitters. Cartwheel is -3 on block. Shitty D3. average damage outside Dive kicks and B2. Shitty X-ray (like that matters anyway though). Totally predictable playstyle, not much room for innovation.

kinda rambling here but whatever, Sonya is getting over hyped just like every other "character of the month" BS thats been going on

PS: SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE

This is definately not another Jax moment. Sonya does have the tools/ mixups to screw people badly in a match. Jax had a ton of holes that people never realized untill CD Jr started showing how good jax can be. But you can ask anyone who plays Jax and they can tell you how hard it is to play someone that knows the full matchup. I know all of sonya's capabilities and she still gives me a real hard time. Her tools are amazing and people have to stop acting like shes not good, same with CAGE.

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

Armor can interrupt it. I also think when you blocked the D+4 MS F+1 can be jumped out of.

MS f1 cant be jumped out ive tried that so many times, armoring through it has such a small window its ridiculous. If anyone can armor through d4 ms f1 than i would like to see that.

 

[LEGEND]

This is definately not another Jax moment. Sonya does have the tools/ mixups to screw people badly in a match. Jax had a ton of holes that people never realized untill CD Jr started showing how good jax can be. But you can ask anyone who plays Jax and they can tell you how hard it is to play someone that knows the full matchup. I know all of sonya's capabilities and she still gives me a real hard time. Her tools are amazing and people have to stop acting like shes not good, same with CAGE.

i don't think anyone says she isn't good. saying she is top three is just taking it too far

 

[REO]

Man, I thought the "zoning" era (EVO - Devastation) would have died off by now. As you become better at this game, you start to realize it's extremely heavy on footsies. This game is also highly favorable to rushdown characters and rewards any offensive means. This becomes more apparent as your understanding of the game increases.

The stages are laughably small in this game, characters can machine gun-dash and reach threatening space in seconds. Projectiles do garbage chip and meter gain (the same as single jabs and hits in strings). If your character does not have any of the following:

Good footsies
Armor and solid defense
Reliable Offense

Then it's going to be extremely hard to win at high level against characters that do.

 

[salvificblood]

Death ull be surprized, Pig hates sonya he can tell u. Sonya is ridiculous and ik u just started playing her last month but u havent found everything there is to sonya yet. She has the craziest pressure and mixups in the game its not even funny and they are mostly safe. People dont realize what potential she has because everyone is into the smoke resets, kabal iagb+ndc pressures, and cyrax resets. Some know what shes capable of but shes almost broken IMO. I still havent found a good match against her because they are all too risky against sonya cuz of her tools.

That's the crazy thing about her. Even when you can actually outpoke her (Sub-Zero can kind of do it because of how fast his d4 is), she can blow you up at any time with the divekick into a full combo, so you start hesitating and then she gets free d4 ms stuff, lol. That, combined with the constant threat of ex cartwheel when you're pressuring her, makes fighting her a complete lottery.

They need to either nerf the recovery on her ex cartwheel (it's not right that you can jump over her, turn around to try and whiff punish only to have her divekick you into a full combo, it should definitely be punishable on block, though), reduce the startup on divekick (she can divekick you after landing a d4 and trying to pressure), or change the properties on it somehow so that she can't combo into it so low to the ground. The above, or nerf the recovery on her ring toss. Her tools are all too good taken together, in my opinion. Don't nerf all of the above, just change one of those things soshe can't outzone people as well as destroying everybody as soon as she gets within d4 ms range.

 

[PND_Mustard]

Keepaway would be far more legit if projectiles pushed slightly further back on block, i know characters can dash d3 whatever to avoid it, but it would make keepaway zoning a bit more threatening nonetheless.

 

[THTB]

MS f1 cant be jumped out ive tried that so many times, armoring through it has such a small window its ridiculous. If anyone can armor through d4 ms f1 than i would like to see that.

d4 xx MSf1 is very much jumpable if it is not done airtight or from too far away.

a reptile player would say that

/troll

In all seriousness, I'd likely be saying the same thing if I wasn't using Reptile.

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

i don't think anyone says she isn't good. saying she is top three is just taking it too far

no way bro, she definately diserves top 3 if not top 5.... who really gives her a hard time besides kabal? kabal and shoot fireballs but she has good dashes so she can dash block under them better than most characters. kenshi and freddy are based off reads also freddy can be armored out his nightmare stance and his ground claw if u expect it.

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

d4 xx MSf1 is very much jumpable if it is not done airtight or from too far away.

when u link it im sure u cant jump out gcuz d4 jails u. like i said i wanna see some proof cuz ive tried it multiple times and it never works.

 

[M2Dave]

KingHippo, Kenshi doesn't even have a strong full screen keep away game. Freddy and Noob present more difficulties for Sonya.
Telefury has poor tracking while the overhead slashes are slow. Kenshi's zoning game revolves around the spirit charge at mid range. Sonya can penetrate his defense if you fight patiently and make good reads. I think she is better off vs Kenshi than Kitana, and Mr. Mileena's Kitana is doing well vs Pig's Kenshi. I can only imagine what he would do with a character that has armor and great offense.

 

[THTB]

As you become better at this game, you start to realize it's extremely heavy on footsies.

Something I called a LONG TIME AGO. XD