MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

[Dandy J]

Gief at the very LEAST gets a free spd, that's 20% plus wakeups, or jab confirm into EX green hand, more damage to even better wakeups. And neither of them are hard to time to require crazy reactions.

I've gone though every single character in the game, seeing how they can punish the spin. About a 3rd of the characters get a brain-dead punish, a 3rd get a punish but you have to react+execute the dash well, with varying degrees of accuracy, and a 3rd get something piss-poor. It's at least not so bad, most of the characters that have shitty punishes are also low tier, so if you play a good character you'll probably have a good punish. I'm not considering instances where characters can punish it with fast specials, because that's not a real punish in my eyes. I still think he should spin around like one of those idiots who run into glass doors when it gets blocked.

 

[lobo]

so what you are saying is that about 1/3 of the characters can punish this move heavily...and yet you are calling for a nerf to it? that makes no sense at all. how about you try learning one of those 1/3 of the characters? calling for nerfs to something that isn't even close to overpowered against 1/3 of the cast is so scrubby.

 

[RWDY Nori]

its not directed at you sir.. sorry if you took it that way..

if you look at the thread i been posting randomly about kung..

No worries, I misunderstood


Dandy J: The throw, ground hat are good tools, yes. Obviously, a char isn't great based on a single regular throw. It's a good throw, but somebody with a teleport is right back in. And it will come down to matchups, somebody who wants to get in w/out a teleport, then sure the throw is great. I think his own teleport is overrated personally. I feel he has to work hard (in high level play, offline) than people are realizing. All I'm really saying is, when people get used to the animation, it is unique

And to the SSF4 point, are you saying w/out ultra, MOST chars in the game can punish a jab SRK w/30-50%? And even then, SPD isn't 30% (which doesn't mean it isn't a great move)

 

[THTB]

Why is this still being discussed? It's only 3 weeks into a game that just about everyone is still getting used to in every single aspect, including punishing. People still aren't punishing blocked KL divekicks (or many other specials that leave you in rolling recovery) for the maximum that they can, which is a full GROUNDED combo easy. I've only seen maybe a couple players consistently combo after air-to-air JPs. So on and so forth.

Give it time before we start talking nerfs and buffs and how broken KL is. This is the same shit with Rufus or Gief in SFIV...people bitched about them until they learned how to play against them. After that, the rest is history.

 

[Dandy J]

so what you are saying is that about 1/3 of the characters can punish this move heavily...and yet you are calling for a nerf to it? that makes no sense at all. how about you try learning one of those 1/3 of the characters? calling for nerfs to something that isn't even close to overpowered against 1/3 of the cast is so scrubby.

I play only good characters. But I care about more than just myself. If following logic is scrubby than I guess I'm pretty big scrub. If most characters can already punish it, then it's not a nerf, right? No harm, no foul.

THTB - yeah, I agree, this is a long argument for what is not really a big issue, but I love to argue almost as much as I love to play fighting games. :7)

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

Im surprised no one ever mentions Sonya in top tier lists. Their have got to be some players out there who are abusing her military stance trap to the fullest and crushing everyone they play with it. Ive only played one person whos has used this on me and I had no answer for it and got destroyed. I feel like once someone takes down a tournament with her all Im going to hear is about how she needs to be nerfed.

(And IMHO Kung Lao is fine. He has a really good move that IS punishable and I personally dont think it needs nerfing. Stuff like Sonyas trap and Quan Chis Rune trap is the kind of stuff Id like to see nerfed if anything at this point.)

 

[dookieagain]

i think that a lot of this goes back to someone's earlier observation about 2d vs 3d players coming to MK.

as someone who has never played any 2d game competitively before this one, i still view it through my "soul calibur shaded glasses.

the way i am going about learning the game is by knowing my character's punishers, learning exactly how to punish all of the other characters and what i percieve to be their strong moves. i am used to the idea of some characters being great at punishing as their strength, which is why i choose them. i think nori is looking at it the same way. you 2d guys seem to be used to punishment being roughly equal among characters, and base your strategy more around forcing offensive mixups then studying punishment capabilities.

it is two completely different, yet equally valid approaches to learning the game. the fact that you can play it either way is, i believe, the reason why so many of us from the calibur/tekken scenes have taken such a strong liking to this game.

just because your usual methodology doesn't work on KL, does not mean he needs a nerf AT ALL. look into punishing characters, and explore your options beginning there. don't expect all of them to have the same, or even similar capabilities.

This is true in 3d fighters, and I have played Soul Calibur and Tekken competitively. But I think you're missing something important. . . this is a 2d fighter. These things work in 3d fighters because you have a third plane of movement as well as a lot of options for universal defense mechanisms. Is there a low parry in this game? Or a Soul Calibur parry/knockdown? Those games can have more varied punishment options because of the fact that so much more of the game is based on whiff punishment and spacing.

I can't sidestep spin, I can't backdash spin the way you can in 3d fighter. This is a 2d game and so most of the time my only option that beats spin is blocking.

I played SSF4 since it came out and played in tournaments for it since it came out. Not every char can get 40-50%, especially gief.

I guess I should be more specific: LIGHT SRK. Heavy SRK, then sure pick your poison. Light? No, not every char can and you know that.

I said BLOCKED SRK, not focus. Obviously, you can focus to Ultra, but that's not what I said. If you are going to be sarcastic, at least pay attention to what I'm saying. Again, you cannot BLOCK a SRK and dash up and ultra.

And now you are going off the deep end here about 6 chars tourney viable. Who, besides you, thinks this? Matter of fact, I don't even think you think this, you are saying it just exaggerate your point. There are 2-3 chars that will have a very hard time winning a tournament right now. Yet, the game is out 3 weeks. Again, 3 weeks, not 4 months.

With your logic, nothing should be safe if you can do big damage off of it. Nightwolf's hatchet leads to half life sometimes and is 100% safe. Are we asking NRS to patch this also?

In tekken if you block a hopkick, you get jabs. JABS, not 30-50% combos like this game. If you get HIT by a hopkick, especially if you are near a wall, most of the time you just lost half life.

First off light SRK is -14 on block. If spin was -14 on block you would cry. I don't think I can explain how bad that is. Literally any move can punish it. I can't even think of a combo that has more than 14 frame start up to hit. Second Zangief can dash and buffer an Ultra. Or just raw Ultra buffered into a whiffed jab. It's a 0 frame grab.

Secondly hopkick is in a 3d fighter about whiff punishing, and it is beaten by everything except lows. Third jabs in Tekken lead to an automatic mixup because they're plus on block and hit. If blocked spin gave me a free Jump in punch it'd be equivalent.

Third hatchet doesn't beat every other attack in the game, spin does. Comparing spin to an SRK is accurate. It is an attack that beats every other attack in the game and is beaten by blocking. Hatchet is a completely different move with completely different use. If I expect a hatchet I can hit a button and beat it. You lose when you hit any button to spin. It's unsafe, so why is it really unsafe only against 1/3-2/3 of the cast?

Fine saying only six characters are viable is stupid. But why should the low tier characters also be the ones who don't get damage when they correctly predict a move and read their opponent?

I'm not asking for a nerf exactly, I'm simply asking that the punishment for a punishable move be in line for all the characters this is true of 90% of the moves in this game, whereby most characters either get a full punish or it's safe. Why should two moves on two top tier characters buck this trend and help make matchups that they already win be even more lopsided.

 

[Dandy J]

Frames don't tell the whole story. Spin is worse than -14 on block I think, but it pushes back hella, that's more the problem. Oh maybe it just shouldn't push back heh.

 

[THTB]

Im surprised no one ever mentions Sonya in top tier lists. Their have got to be some players out there who are abusing her military stance trap to the fullest and crushing everyone they play with it. Ive only played one person whos has used this on me and I had no answer for it and got destroyed. I feel like once someone takes down a tournament with her all Im going to hear is about how she needs to be nerfed.

(And IMHO Kung Lao is fine. He has a really good move that IS punishable and I personally dont think it needs nerfing. Stuff like Sonyas trap and Quan Chis Rune trap is the kind of stuff Id like to see nerfed if anything at this point.)

In current format, Sonya's MS leads to a block infinite. There is no answer to it lol. It will be reworked soon.

 

[Dandy J]

Yeah I just assumed people were basing things on it being changed. I'm curious to see how it changes...I think Sonya will be mad good, really cool character from what I've played of her.

 

[THTB]

If anything it'd be slower by just enough to get out of the trap.

Sonya's an untapped character. She is basically the Rufus/Cammy of the game...offense is SO good.

 

[lobo]

First off light SRK is -14 on block. If spin was -14 on block you would cry. I don't think I can explain how bad that is. Literally any move can punish it. I can't even think of a combo that has more than 14 frame start up to hit. Second Zangief can dash and buffer an Ultra. Or just raw Ultra buffered into a whiffed jab. It's a 0 frame grab.

first of all kitana f21 is i18, so spin has to be -18 or worse...i don't know if you can punish at zero frames in this game. dandy j is right in that the pushback is the bigger issue.

second, you completely missed my point. sure, this is a 2d game, but it is unique. it does not and should not play anything like the capcom/snk 2d games you are used to. you CAN play it in the same manner as tekken/calibur and base your actions on responding to your opponent's offense rather than focusing on your own offense. i am completely used to the idea of picking characters based strictly on how well they can punish and avoid. making everyone have equal capabilities in this sense would homogenize the cast and make the game as boring to watch and play as street fighter is. i love that you can pick and learn based on a completely different playstyle. why on earth would eliminating that possibility be a good thing?

 

[RWDY Nori]

First off light SRK is -14 on block. If spin was -14 on block you would cry. I don't think I can explain how bad that is. Literally any move can punish it. I can't even think of a combo that has more than 14 frame start up to hit. Second Zangief can dash and buffer an Ultra. Or just raw Ultra buffered into a whiffed jab. It's a 0 frame grab.

Again, you are throwing out ultras when I'm not talking about that. You don't always have access to an ultra. In this game, you always have access to your combos and sometimes, you have access to combo to X-ray if that's the argument you want to use. And again, as I originally stated (maybe gief wasn't the best example since he's top tier in 4 and still great in super 4), not EVERYBODY can get 30-50% on a blocked, jab SRK

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I think the majority of people here have no experience with half the cast of MK.

Spin should hit High. Hitting high would solve a lot of the problems currently with spin. The biggest issue is spin kills half the cast because a basic sweep/uppercut/throw plays a bigger part in their game. If I can't even sweep my opponent on wake-up, when it's the only mix-up a low damage character has, spin essentially becomes a move that can trade 2-3 times and still beat the opponent out on damage.

Most characters do not get easy 40% punish off a blocked spin. 30% really is the best you can hope for when it comes to a lot of the cast. Not everyone gets 40%+ damage on an open field. Just because you see less than 10 characters competing that can punish the spin for high damage doesn't mean the other half of the cast can do the same.

 

[Action Kungfu]

I can name at least 2 moves in every game where some chars can punish a move hard and some can't. It's why we have matchups. Based on what you are saying, that sucks for Stryker players, yet I'm sure he has tools that other chars would kill for.

Do it for VF5 ver C.(most current VF version the world[not just Japan with FS] at large has access to), go.

i think that a lot of this goes back to someone's earlier observation about 2d vs 3d players coming to MK.

as someone who has never played any 2d game competitively before this one, i still view it through my "soul calibur shaded glasses.

the way i am going about learning the game is by knowing my character's punishers, learning exactly how to punish all of the other characters and what i percieve to be their strong moves. i am used to the idea of some characters being great at punishing as their strength, which is why i choose them. i think nori is looking at it the same way. you 2d guys seem to be used to punishment being roughly equal among characters, and base your strategy more around forcing offensive mixups then studying punishment capabilities.

it is two completely different, yet equally valid approaches to learning the game. the fact that you can play it either way is, i believe, the reason why so many of us from the calibur/tekken scenes have taken such a strong liking to this game.

just because your usual methodology doesn't work on KL, does not mean he needs a nerf AT ALL. look into punishing characters, and explore your options beginning there. don't expect all of them to have the same, or even similar capabilities.

That's the other way around. 2d is the sub-genre where some things aren't punished properly based on their risk/rewards. 3d is much better about this. Characters across the board in 3d games generally have some type of punish available to them based on frames, the amount of punishment in possible max damage depends on the character and properties of their moves(and at least a considerable amount of damage based on the moves possible reward). But often times at the most basic level, the characters have jab strings or throws available as punishments, a character with heavy throw rewarding movelist get the most perks and benefits for punishing with throws, whereas a strike heavy character would reap the benefits of having jab strings for their punishers. However through all that, whether they're a throwing character or a strike heavy character they still have both options available to use for punishments based on the same amount of frame advantages give or take a couple of frames.

And that's not even mentioning the 3d plane of evasion and flat out avoiding moves at pointblank. 2d game's jump option might be as close to 3d evade/side step for most games(unless there's dodge options i.e. Kof, and other such games).

Soul Calibur is also an example that can sometimes be flimsy at best for a point such as that, because some strings are purposefully designed to be totally safe, matchup dependent safety/punishability(weapon ranges), unpunishable, or even large frame advantages because these strings and moves can be guard impacted during points of the strings. I'm a soul calibur newbie, but I at least understand that concept enough to mention it. btw lol @ soul calibur balance, you agree?

As a risk/reward example let's look at 2d standing jab and a 3d one. 2d standing jab can possibly lead to hit confirmable combos that could quite possibly end rounds. Typical 3d games a standing jab leads to either a jab string where the rest can get blocked depending on normal or counter hit, or just the opportunity to force choices on frame advantages.

The point from my post here is that this new MK is like a huge go between, with 2d and 3d games. It has a lot of 3d elements up close but some things possibly need ironing out, but only time will truly tell if nerfs or buffs or needed. But there's no problem with any of us making suggestions for or against.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Do it for VF5 ver C.(most current VF version the world[not just Japan with FS] at large has access to), go.

Ok, that's 1 game for arguments sake. 1. What about SF4, SSF4, SSF2T, SSF2T HD Remix, 3S, BlazeBlue, Tekken (pick one), Soul Calibur (pick one), MK (pick one), MvC2 (for sure), MvC3

So I was 99% right?


Overall, I think the people that are actually playing in tournaments and actively are saying the same thing, over and over: Give it time, practice against somebody who uses the char, TRY to find a way to beat it before the nerf stick comes out.

 

[Juggs]

We will definitely give the game time, but it shouldn't discourage you from posting your opinions in this thread. If you think something should be nerfed or buffed, just explain why. Keep in mind though, something that will be nerfed is something objective, not something that you think is too good or imbalanced. It has to actually be too good or imbalanced. That's why most people are saying to give the game time.

 

[Action Kungfu]

Ok, that's 1 game for arguments sake. 1. What about SF4, SSF4, SSF2T, SSF2T HD Remix, 3S, BlazeBlue, Tekken (pick one), Soul Calibur (pick one), MK (pick one), MvC2 (for sure), MvC3

So I was 99% right?


Overall, I think the people that are actually playing in tournaments and actively are saying the same thing, over and over: Give it time, practice against somebody who uses the char, TRY to find a way to beat it before the nerf stick comes out.

And you name old games from the same flagship and multiple versions of said games too, while leaving many games out, to make your list look larger than it really is by far.

99% > * your real percentage

Overall it's not even unanimous from individuals that are playing in tourney for this game and those that aren't. There's only been one major for the game though and that is a pretty strong argument on the wait and see camp. Waiting and seeing doesn't render discussion and suggestions invalid, btw. We're ALL waiting and seeing, while discussing things.

 

[RWDY Nori]

And you name old games from the same flagship and multiple versions of said games too, while leaving many games out, to make your list look larger than it really is by far.

99% > * your real percentage

Overall it's not even unanimous from individuals that are playing in tourney for this game and those that aren't. There's only been one major for the game though and that is a pretty strong argument on the wait and see camp. Waiting and seeing doesn't render discussion and suggestions invalid, btw. We're ALL waiting and seeing, while discussing things.

You are more than welcome to post games besides VF5 with my example. I'm not stopping you, but I think my point is made. It seems like you are nitpicking my example vs actually presenting your argument.

And I didn't say don't post your opinions either. There's been lots of discussion the last couple of weeks (and when I'm bored at work, which was today, the thread is active and that's awesome) which is great. Don't put words in my mouth, I never said anything was unanimous nor said anybodys suggestions were invalid. I'm pretty sure what I said was: Give it time, practice against somebody who uses the char, TRY to find a way to beat it before the nerf stick comes out.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

spin has to be -18 or worse

making everyone have equal capabilities in this sense would homogenize the cast and make the game as boring to watch and play as street fighter is.

Well you just lost the little credibility you had right there.

not EVERYBODY can get 30-50% on a blocked, jab SRK

You don't even play SSF4 do you? First of all, no one can get 50% meterless in SF. And even with Ultras or EX involved, the most damaging combos usually cap at 400-500 because of damage scaling anyway. But fact is, every single character has a punish combo or move to punish whiffed and blocked specials. Heck you can even walk up and throw Ryu if you block his LP shoryuken.

I personally can't think of any character in the cast that can't severly punish a blocked L Shoryuken one way or another. And the average punisher combo varies between 200 and 300 damage. Even a throw or sweep does around 100 dmg and gives you an untechable knockdown for an option select or vortex set up.

 

[Action Kungfu]

You are more than welcome to post games besides VF5 with my example. I'm not stopping you, but I think my point is made. It seems like you are nitpicking my example vs actually presenting your argument.

And I didn't say don't post your opinions either. There's been lots of discussion the last couple of weeks (and when I'm bored at work, which was today, the thread is active and that's awesome) which is great. Don't put words in my mouth, I never said anything was unanimous nor said anybodys suggestions were invalid. I'm pretty sure what I said was: Give it time, practice against somebody who uses the char, TRY to find a way to beat it before the nerf stick comes out.

You keep eluding to and inferring certain things, but upon correction(or nitpicking as you call it), the meanings and points change. It's as if you only tell half the truth in your points. I didn't put words in your mouth, I'm just trying to get things to be perfectly clear instead of having so many things left up to assumptions that could be twisted based on what side of the discussion someone is on.

 

[oZii]

You are more than welcome to post games besides VF5 with my example. I'm not stopping you, but I think my point is made. It seems like you are nitpicking my example vs actually presenting your argument.

And I didn't say don't post your opinions either. There's been lots of discussion the last couple of weeks (and when I'm bored at work, which was today, the thread is active and that's awesome) which is great. Don't put words in my mouth, I never said anything was unanimous nor said anybodys suggestions were invalid. I'm pretty sure what I said was: Give it time, practice against somebody who uses the char, TRY to find a way to beat it before the nerf stick comes out.

I don't think anyone is nitpicking to be a smart-ass. Its pretty simple

You say SRK is unpunishible so it = kung lao spin

Someone replies characters in SF4 can punish SRK

you reply Zangief can't punish

Somone replies focus cancel/ultra

you reply I wasnt talking about ultras

they reply well he gets at least a throw punish

you reply i can name at least 2 games where there is a move that is unpunishible

someone else responds VF5

etc....

Problem is your using other fighting games to support your arguement for the spin being fine. Mostly SF4 references

people are showing you there is nothing comparable to SF4 = kungs spin.

I think people just want a more valid reason for why you think the spin is fine outside of lets wait and see its to early. If that is your only reason for it then just let it be your not going to convince anyone with just lets wait and see. At least convince them that they are going to stop presenting their case for why the spin needs to be looked out.

Just being in the middle even though most in this thread know I think spin needs to be looked at. Just saying cause the Main Point seems to be getting lost amongst the he said/she said.

Right now everyone that is for the Spin is fine should be ok since there is no incoming patch that anyone knows about that the spin will be adjusted. Everyone saying the spin needs to be adjusted can only say their reason and give whatever evidence or reasons for it in here cause right now it seems the spin will stay as it is.

 

[page]

Sheeva is a beast, real talk.

 

[Error Macro]

This thread is spinning out of control. No wonder ppl hate talking about tiers early.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

edit: yeah we should just stop comparing MK with SF or other fighting games imo.

I'm not saying Kung Lao needs to get "nerfed" per say. Just saying that any whiffed or blocked special like Spin should ideally be punishable by everyone and with full combos. Which currently isn't the case as dookieagain pointed out. This is because some character's BnB start up frames are too slow to punish Kung Lao in time.

So the way I see it, there's two basic solutions to this kind of problem:

1. Increase Spin's recovery on block (a few frames)

and/or:

2. Reduce start up frames of every character's BnB that can't punish Kung Lao in time.

Or in some other cases like Johnny Cage: Reduce stryke invincible frames or reduce start up of everyone's uppercut.

It's that simple. It's not like it would really affect top Kung Lao players anyway. It would just help balance the game more imo.