KTF Ep. 5 (Screwjob) - Podcast Ft. LotF, King Hippo, Coolwhip, Saucy & Home Lee

[Phosferrax]

Also, on the topic of 'sleeper' characters, I feel like Zod still has a lot of room left for the perfect playstyle, and I think Relaxedstate is the closest to a 'complete' Zod, not to rustle any jimmies.

What I mean by that, is I always felt that if someone could combine Armor's zoning style with Dave's, and then combine that with Pig's trait pressure, boss fundmentals and MU knowledge, then it would be the ultimate Zod. IMO Relaxed is the person that combines silly op zodball zoning with trait pressure the best.

On Zod's tough mu's, I think Armor showed promise with the Sinestro mu on Pig's stream, and I think Relaxed showed great promise against Aquaman at NEC. He'll be kicking himself after he watches his set with Slayer, because if it wasn't for individual end-game mistakes in 2 of the games he lost then he would have won. And that leaves Martian, which is probably only 4-6 for Zod.

 

[Juggs]

I felt like the combat didn't have that much depth and got quite stale/samey rather quickly. I felt the story and sub-plots weren't as interesting in narrative or execution as Oblivion, and the dragons become an annoyance after I'd killed my 3rd one. The towns weren't as charming or memorable either. The presentation was a bit lackluster as well, like the menu and inventory.

It's good, but not as good as Oblivion imo. I haven't played it anywhere near as I did with Oblivion, and I feel like Oblivion is much longer?

The combat definitely could have been better. However, one of the most fun parts for me about Skyrim is being able to assassinate enemies by sneaking up behind them and getting the one hit kill throat cut animation. And with the perk of daggers doing 15x damage if it's a sneak attack, plus the gloves that make sneak attacks do x2 damage, a dagger that does 100 damage for example would now do 3000 damage, which is godlike. For bigger enemies, I used a bow & arrow, which was also fun to use and took skill. Of course, boss fights were tough but when using an assassin character, you generally want to level up your one handed stats anyway, so even in boss fights you're not hopeless.

The story, to me, was a lot better if you read the books throughout the world. It also helped with immersion. I understand that most people aren't going to sit there and read several pages of story/lore when they don't have to, but there's some really awesome stuff people missed out on if they didn't.

Skyrim is one of those games kinda like Minecraft, or other RPG's where the role playing and immersion factor and the atmosphere definitely affects the experience. I never listened to music while playing because it felt like I was just playing a video game when I did as oppose to immersing myself into the world. Sure, there's so many things that could have been better, and certainly not everyone is going to like it. The combat depth was definitely lacking, but like I said, slitting throats was just so satisfying to me, along with being a thief going around robbing people just cause I could. I would highly suggest if anyone who ever played Skyrim never played as a Thief Assassin to try it out, one of the best RPG experiences I've had honestly.

 

[Laos_boy]

Tswizzle is a basic thot that can't dance.

Ariana grande tho <3

 

[Kyu]

Totally did not realize I was mentioned, thanks. @KingHippo the cyborgs I have played have ONLY been online, so take it with a grain of salt, but @Ram and khaotic wulf (don't know his tag) I have beaten fairly well with Bane. Wulf is considered PSNs best borg, but apparently balding is on PSN now so I'll grind it out more.

 

[Cossner]

@GGA Saucy Jack do you listen to podcast Beyond/Game Scoop?

 

[DarthArma]

@DarthArma after he beat the shit out of my aquaman.

<3 breaking bad

 

[Clark L.]

<3 breaking bad

In re watching for the first time since it ended, and it's just as good as the first time, if not better.

 

[MajinBerserker]

Feel the strength of the gods!!!
I agree @KingHippo. I don't think I upplay too much, but I see no reason why Adam can't be successful.
His mobility is still great, his whiff punishing is amazing and his footsie game is strong. Mix in his safe normals with trait canceling mix ups and the ever present threat of dive kick, and you can have success. Every time he touches the opponent, he takes chunks of life.
As you mentioned, his walk back game is very strong and can still wreak havoc against a lot of characters.
His normalizations weren't nearly as bad as they can be made out to be and he even got good buffs with his B23U2 change and MB Black Magic allowing a B3 combo follow-up. Low Lightning is still strong, as well, and I don't buy for a second that it is "jumpable on reaction" every single time he throws it out (occasionally- yes).
The character doesn't need to be broke to be successful (ex. DS, Superman, DD, Batman). With smart play and good fundamentals, Adam will still be feared.
Somewhere along the line "BA sucks now" propaganda just reached too many ears, unfortunately.

@GGA Saucy Jack I can't get no satisfaction from The Rolling Vomits either.

 

[MajinBerserker]

Aight seeing how it's the 10 year Anniversary of his passing I ask the KTF members the following: Best Pantera Album & Song go

Not a member, but Pantera is my fav band so I have to chime in.
Album: Trendkill (Far Beyond Driven on certain days)
Song: "Where You Come From" off Official Live: 101 Proof

 

[Captain Oxygen]

I've always thought there was no reason Black Adam players should still be doing well.
Rico Does NOT practice injustice anymore and still makes 13th/9th almost every tournament. Hell, with the exception of Jupiter resetting the bracket he was the CLOSEST to beating sonic fox!?
Yea he has some issues that have come from the patch, but a lot of his strengths he still has.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I've always thought there was no reason Black Adam players should still be doing well.
Rico Does NOT practice injustice anymore and still makes 13th/9th almost every tournament. Hell, with the exception of Jupiter resetting the bracket he was the CLOSEST to beating sonic fox!?
Yea he has some issues that have come from the patch, but a lot of his strengths he still has.

I think that has a lot more to do with Rico's abilities and experience as a player than Black Adam as a character. Likewise, I wouldn't expect another CW to place Top 3 just because Steve does.

 

[Vandy]

Great show as always!

I agree with Bit - don't hate on my Selina. She can do no wrong.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Great show as always!

I agree with Bit - don't hate on my Selina. She can do no wrong.

not you too

 

[ForeverKing]

In what MU's does DS do better than Batman?

He does worse than BM in the Bane MU for one.

@HomeLee1121
@coolwhip
@FOREVER KING

Deathstoke does better than Batman for sure against:
Aquaman
Green Lantern
Catwoman
Harley
Hawkgirl
Superman
Raven

He debatable does better against
Martian
Flash
Zod

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I thought you were the nice guy at GGA

As far as your first point goes, I agree, you SHOULD be punished for whiffing a move. Except we both know that in Injustice, whiffing a move doesn't always lead to a full combo punish, and it happens all the time, even at the top level. In fact, at times, it's impossible to punish. Batman's B23 in a lot of match-ups, isn't punished heavily on whiff since it sends him away from you (so you might eat a quick projectile like Deathstroke's quick fire or something, which isn't too bad. Of course this varies. Aquaman can get a 20% off of a whiffed B23). So in the sole match-up in which it is HEAVILY punished, don't you think this should get taken into consideration as far as match-up talk is concerned?

Take this hypothetical example: if a wake-up attack is safe against 80% of the cast, but there are a few characters that can punish it, this will be taken into account when discussing these match-ups, even if you'd argue that a wake-up attack should be punishable (this is not necessarily an example from Injustice. Just a general thought).

Now, I'm 100% with you that stating Batman loses to Flash because B23 gets punished on whiff is a blow-up. That's like saying Deathstroke loses a match-up badly because low guns get punished (actually, it's worse, since whiffing a move is theoretically a player mistake. Having a move blocked isn't). That's only one aspect of the match-up. However, when you combine it with other aspects that have actually been touched on in this thread (but conveniently ignored by the anti Batman zealots ), then it makes sense. Keep in mind, I agree, if you whiff a B23, that's on you. You shouldn't be doing that in any match-up and have better spacing. But if we're hearing how it's easy it is to keep Flash out due to batarangs, bats, and B23, then it's fair to say how risky it can be to throw a B23, especially if it's on a dash in read, or god forbid, reaction.

As far as the "using different jumping attacks in different situations" thing, this might be common knowledge but most of us Batman players are just used to doing J2 in every areal situation, so I don't see how it's such a big blow-up to point out which jumping attacks work better in which situations. People discuss when it's better to use say, Deathstroke's J3 vs. his J1 all the time. If something is common knowledge in theory, it's still worth discussing its situational applications.

Man, I feel dirty disagreeing with a GGA guy. Sorry. I'll make it up with extra dick riding on the next podcast. Promise.

Flash is a character that, as 16 Bit says, "plays the game". He has to maneuver his way in past Batman's zoning and footsies and when he is up close, Batman is in control. That is why Flash has high damage and a brutal knockdown game; playing footsies is difficult.

 

[The Highlander]

The combat definitely could have been better. However, one of the most fun parts for me about Skyrim is being able to assassinate enemies by sneaking up behind them and getting the one hit kill throat cut animation. And with the perk of daggers doing 15x damage if it's a sneak attack, plus the gloves that make sneak attacks do x2 damage, a dagger that does 100 damage for example would now do 3000 damage, which is godlike. For bigger enemies, I used a bow & arrow, which was also fun to use and took skill. Of course, boss fights were tough but when using an assassin character, you generally want to level up your one handed stats anyway, so even in boss fights you're not hopeless.

The story, to me, was a lot better if you read the books throughout the world. It also helped with immersion. I understand that most people aren't going to sit there and read several pages of story/lore when they don't have to, but there's some really awesome stuff people missed out on if they didn't.

Skyrim is one of those games kinda like Minecraft, or other RPG's where the role playing and immersion factor and the atmosphere definitely affects the experience. I never listened to music while playing because it felt like I was just playing a video game when I did as oppose to immersing myself into the world. Sure, there's so many things that could have been better, and certainly not everyone is going to like it. The combat depth was definitely lacking, but like I said, slitting throats was just so satisfying to me, along with being a thief going around robbing people just cause I could. I would highly suggest if anyone who ever played Skyrim never played as a Thief Assassin to try it out, one of the best RPG experiences I've had honestly.

Skyrim's pretty good but I agree that a few things just seemed lacking. Did you play oblivion? You can have a similar RPG thief experience with the trade off that the graphics are worse and combat is a bit stiff, but the story is so much better and enchanting is way cooler. I don't just mean the main story either, the Dark brotherhood, thieves guild etc seemed way more interesting in oblivion... Take this with a grain of salt though, I'm probably wearing rose tinted glasses. And I'm sure people that played Morrowind said the same of Oblivion.

 

[haketh]

I would hate Skyrim a shitton less if it at least follwoed through on story things in a satisfying manner, ESPECIALLY Ulfric working with the THalmor.

 

[DarkPage]

Fucking yes

 

[HoneyBee]

OK, so let me get the air-to-air j2 thing out of the way. Obviously, Batman’s J2 in general is ridiculous. However, as an air-to-air, while it’s still very good, it’s not quite as dominant in the air-to-air game against a lot of characters. Offhand, I can think of a quite a few jumping attacks that beat it such as Catwoman’s J2, Aquaman’s J2, Green Lantern’s J1, Deathstroke’s J1, as well as Flash’s J1. I understand those are only a few but that’s literally off the top of my head. Pretty sure there’s more. Now granted, when it comes to jumping attacks, there are no absolutes and a lot depends on timing, distance, etc… So it’s not quite as simple as saying “move A always beats move B.” Also, with that out of the way, I was half trolling by saying “it’s not that great,” but the guys went apeshit and the draconian @GGA Saucy Jack censored me, the traitor @HomeLee1121 didn't back me up on my downplaying, and @KingHippo ignored our shared identity, so I just rolled with it, lol.

Regardless, the point I wanted to make is the following: in some situations using Batman’s J1 instead of J2 as an air-to-air is the better option, especially if you’re challenging an opponent’s jump in. At least, in my experience, it works better against Flash. That’s all I wanted to say re: Batman’s J2. I was actually trying to offer a genuine opinion rather than downplay. Ok fine, I was trying both.

As far as that match-up goes, I fully admitted I needed to grind it out some more, but I stand by what I said. You’re not going to fully zone Flash out with batarangs. Show me a good Flash player who hasn’t been able to get in because of batarangs. I’m not saying batarangs are inconsequential in this match-up. If you get the life lead, they’re huge.

For Batman, Bat management is super crucial in this match-up because Flash will get in, and you have to have bats available to prevent him from dashing in or jumping in for free once he’s in footsie range. You also need them for zoning to keep him honest about speed dodging, or cover your ass if you read a jump and throw an up batarang. With proper bat management, Batman’s zoning becomes effective, but then again, Flash is going to get in eventually. It’s just inevitable. And that’s kinda what I was alluding to when I was talking about Batman’s lack of d1~special and shitty range in general, or B23 not being that good in this match-up. If you’re spending your bats in the zoning game to keep Flash out, your bat management needs to be immaculate since if he gets within dash range and you have no bats on you, he has no reason to respect you, as his footsy tools become far superior.

In addition to Batman having to deal with Flash’s crazy pressure and shenanigans the way every character in the game does, if Flash opens you up once, and gets the life lead, it really becomes an uphill battle. That’s 50% damage or so, plus oki and momentum. Batman’s wake-ups are all but useless in this match-up (if you throw a parry on wake-up against Flash, you’re a braver man than I am, and Flash has no reason to respect your negative on hit slide since the risk/reward is heavily in his favor), so that’s more potential damage for Flash after a combo. After that, there’s nothing to prevent him from just chilling and speed dodging your batarangs, forcing you to get in.

This is where it becomes a problem for Batman because once you approach him, you have to be very careful jumping in as Flash’s D2 is one of the better anti-airs in the game when it comes to dealing with Batman’s J2 and it lowers his hitbox considerably. If the Flash player’s AA game is on point, at worst, he’ll get a trade which he can convert off of. Batman obviously has more difficulties opening Flash up than the other way around, so if you’re at a life deficit, yeah, enjoy your “30 second block string” that’s doing a combined 10% chip, if that, to somehow make up for that half-life bar depleting combo (plus potential for more) that Flash just hit you with.

Now in that regard, you might claim it’s a life lead based match-up and it’s 5-5, and if that’s the case then so be it, but I think Flash actually has an easier time getting the life-lead (or at least, getting a significant life lead). More importantly, he has an easier time evening things up if Batman has the life lead due to his comeback potential. For the record, I genuinely don’t think it’s that difficult of a match-up and if anyone argues it’s even, I wouldn’t be too opposed to that, but I think the above points stand.

I haven’t re-listened and maybe my explanation was all over the place on the podcast, but chalk it up to running on no sleep (that’s right, I’m option selecting). I do stand by the above though.

Blow me up for downplaying.

@FOREVER KING @HoneyBee @DarthArma What do you guys think about the match-up?

Also, sorry I can't resist tagging @WoundCowboy

Sorry for the late response but I think I read all the points thus far related to the Flash vs Batman MU and I have some things to add.

One big thing that works in Flash's favour in this MU is that Batman's pressure includes jumping. Such as using a string, cancel into bats, j2, continue pressure, etc. Against Flash, you can't do that. The second you cancel into trait and try to do a J2, I'm gonna D2 you into a combo and set up that you can't wake up out of. Batman has to completely change his pressure in the MU which for one thing makes the MU difficult for him. Often times, to prevent putting you in that situation, you have to cut your pressure short so that certainly isn't something you want to do.

When Batman zones Flash with trait, I can dash in once or twice from full screen to close the gap. Flash also has a great forward walk speed so using that to close the gap when batman zones is effective as well. As soon as batman releases his trait, he's giving up the scare factor he has over me so sometimes that best way to deal with batman zoning is to disrespect the bat and just dash in to close the gap because you know Batman wants to hold his bats, but that's a read, it depends on the player you're facing and if you see a pattern to their zoning and when they choose to release the bats. Another thing is that since Flash's forward dash lowers/alter's his hitbox. Many times if I'm close enough, a forward dash will go under a released bat (sometimes a LC goes under a bat as well).

Many Batman players like to release bats and do a B3 and I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to work against anyone. It sure as hell doesn't work against Flash because that's easily punished with a D2.

When I was at Summer Jam, I played a ton of games with Arma and I feel like I learned a lot of new things about the MU that I never took advantage of in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more things that I could do better. I know some of Batman's strings have gaps that are interruptable that I don't take advantage of regularly.

I think the reason that Batman players tend to beat Flash players is because the Batman players are just smarter at taking advantage of things and letting the Flash players hang themselves. For example, at ECT and UFGT when I was beat by Arma and King, the majority of times they got anything started was because they punished a whiffed move/string. It's incredibly difficult for Batman to get anything started on Flash otherwise. If I don't over commit to things like using just B2 instead of B22 or D1 instead of D12, Batman has a much harder time whiff punishing me and that's something I noticed with my games with Arma at SJ. As soon as I played the footsie game more, Arma couldn't get anything started. Not to put him on blast, I beat a lot of people convincingly in casuals, but I had a huge win streak on him and it's hard for me to believe Flash doesn't win that MU.

Anyways, that's just my thoughts as of now on the MU. Those combined with the rest said makes a convincing argument for Flash winning the MU.

And thanks @HomeLee1121 for the props <3. I would really like to play your Batman at KIT and see how that goes.

 

[coolwhip]

Flash is a character that, as 16 Bit says, "plays the game". He has to maneuver his way in past Batman's zoning and footsies and when he is up close, Batman is in control. That is why Flash has high damage and a brutal knockdown game; playing footsies is difficult.

Well, he might "play the game," but he plays it really, REALLY well.

 

[coolwhip]

Sorry for the late response but I think I read all the points thus far related to the Flash vs Batman MU and I have some things to add.

One big thing that works in Flash's favour in this MU is that Batman's pressure includes jumping. Such as using a string, cancel into bats, j2, continue pressure, etc. Against Flash, you can't do that. The second you cancel into trait and try to do a J2, I'm gonna D2 you into a combo and set up that you can't wake up out of. Batman has to completely change his pressure in the MU which for one thing makes the MU difficult for him. Often times, to prevent putting you in that situation, you have to cut your pressure short so that certainly isn't something you want to do.

When Batman zones Flash with trait, I can dash in once or twice from full screen to close the gap. Flash also has a great forward walk speed so using that to close the gap when batman zones is effective as well. As soon as batman releases his trait, he's giving up the scare factor he has over me so sometimes that best way to deal with batman zoning is to disrespect the bat and just dash in to close the gap because you know Batman wants to hold his bats, but that's a read, it depends on the player you're facing and if you see a pattern to their zoning and when they choose to release the bats. Another thing is that since Flash's forward dash lowers/alter's his hitbox. Many times if I'm close enough, a forward dash will go under a released bat (sometimes a LC goes under a bat as well).

Many Batman players like to release bats and do a B3 and I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to work against anyone. It sure as hell doesn't work against Flash because that's easily punished with a D2.

When I was at Summer Jam, I played a ton of games with Arma and I feel like I learned a lot of new things about the MU that I never took advantage of in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more things that I could do better. I know some of Batman's strings have gaps that are interruptable that I don't take advantage of regularly.

I think the reason that Batman players tend to beat Flash players is because the Batman players are just smarter at taking advantage of things and letting the Flash players hang themselves. For example, at ECT and UFGT when I was beat by Arma and King, the majority of times they got anything started was because they punished a whiffed move/string. It's incredibly difficult for Batman to get anything started on Flash otherwise. If I don't over commit to things like using just B2 instead of B22 or D1 instead of D12, Batman has a much harder time whiff punishing me and that's something I noticed with my games with Arma at SJ. As soon as I played the footsie game more, Arma couldn't get anything started. Not to put him on blast, I beat a lot of people convincingly in casuals, but I had a huge win streak on him and it's hard for me to believe Flash doesn't win that MU.

Anyways, that's just my thoughts as of now on the MU. Those combined with the rest said makes a convincing argument for Flash winning the MU.

And thanks @HomeLee1121 for the props <3. I would really like to play your Batman at KIT and see how that goes.

Thanks for the input man.

PS: The TL,DR version essentially states that Wound Cowboy needs to apologize.

 

[Ram]

Totally did not realize I was mentioned, thanks. @KingHippo the cyborgs I have played have ONLY been online, so take it with a grain of salt, but @Ram and khaotic wulf (don't know his tag) I have beaten fairly well with Bane. Wulf is considered PSNs best borg, but apparently balding is on PSN now so I'll grind it out more.

Hopefully, I will get to play Biohazard next month at a Canadian tournament, so I will let you know how that goes.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Thanks for the input man.

PS: The TL,DR version essentially states that Wound Cowboy needs to apologize.

So a Flash upplayer and a Batman downplayer are confirming their positions? yea.... I don't think so.

 

[Youphemism]

PS: Really? Nobody's blowing up @AK L0rdoftheFLY for matter-of-factly and casually stating that "everybody loves Taylor Swift. No matter who you are"? Step your game up, regulators.

You seem riled up about this, I suggest you

































shake it off. That's what she said.

 

[HoneyBee]

So a Flash upplayer and a Batman downplayer are confirming their positions? yea.... I don't think so.

I'm not an upplayer. It's the truth.