OK, so let me get the air-to-air j2 thing out of the way. Obviously, Batman’s J2 in general is ridiculous. However, as an air-to-air, while it’s still very good, it’s not quite as dominant in the air-to-air game against a lot of characters. Offhand, I can think of a quite a few jumping attacks that beat it such as Catwoman’s J2, Aquaman’s J2, Green Lantern’s J1, Deathstroke’s J1, as well as Flash’s J1. I understand those are only a few but that’s literally off the top of my head. Pretty sure there’s more. Now granted, when it comes to jumping attacks, there are no absolutes and a lot depends on timing, distance, etc… So it’s not quite as simple as saying “move A always beats move B.” Also, with that out of the way, I was half trolling by saying “it’s not that great,” but the guys went apeshit and the draconian @
GGA Saucy Jack censored me, the traitor @
HomeLee1121 didn't back me up on my downplaying, and @
KingHippo ignored our shared identity, so I just rolled with it, lol.
Regardless, the point I wanted to make is the following: in some situations using Batman’s J1 instead of J2 as an air-to-air is the better option, especially if you’re challenging an opponent’s jump in. At least, in my experience, it works better against Flash. That’s all I wanted to say re: Batman’s J2. I was actually trying to offer a genuine opinion rather than downplay. Ok fine, I was trying both.
As far as that match-up goes, I fully admitted I needed to grind it out some more, but I stand by what I said. You’re not going to fully zone Flash out with batarangs. Show me a good Flash player who hasn’t been able to get in because of batarangs. I’m not saying batarangs are inconsequential in this match-up. If you get the life lead, they’re huge.
For Batman, Bat management is super crucial in this match-up because Flash will get in, and you have to have bats available to prevent him from dashing in or jumping in for free once he’s in footsie range. You also need them for zoning to keep him honest about speed dodging, or cover your ass if you read a jump and throw an up batarang. With proper bat management, Batman’s zoning becomes effective, but then again, Flash is going to get in eventually. It’s just inevitable. And that’s kinda what I was alluding to when I was talking about Batman’s lack of d1~special and shitty range in general, or B23 not being that good in this match-up. If you’re spending your bats in the zoning game to keep Flash out, your bat management needs to be immaculate since if he gets within dash range and you have no bats on you, he has no reason to respect you, as his footsy tools become far superior.
In addition to Batman having to deal with Flash’s crazy pressure and shenanigans the way every character in the game does, if Flash opens you up once, and gets the life lead, it really becomes an uphill battle. That’s 50% damage or so, plus oki and momentum. Batman’s wake-ups are all but useless in this match-up (if you throw a parry on wake-up against Flash, you’re a braver man than I am, and Flash has no reason to respect your negative on hit slide since the risk/reward is heavily in his favor), so that’s more potential damage for Flash after a combo. After that, there’s nothing to prevent him from just chilling and speed dodging your batarangs, forcing you to get in.
This is where it becomes a problem for Batman because once you approach him, you have to be very careful jumping in as Flash’s D2 is one of the better anti-airs in the game when it comes to dealing with Batman’s J2 and it lowers his hitbox considerably. If the Flash player’s AA game is on point, at worst, he’ll get a trade which he can convert off of. Batman obviously has more difficulties opening Flash up than the other way around, so if you’re at a life deficit, yeah, enjoy your “30 second block string” that’s doing a combined 10% chip, if that, to somehow make up for that half-life bar depleting combo (plus potential for more) that Flash just hit you with.
Now in that regard, you might claim it’s a life lead based match-up and it’s 5-5, and if that’s the case then so be it, but I think Flash actually has an easier time getting the life-lead (or at least, getting a significant life lead). More importantly, he has an easier time evening things up if Batman has the life lead due to his comeback potential. For the record, I genuinely don’t think it’s that difficult of a match-up and if anyone argues it’s even, I wouldn’t be too opposed to that, but I think the above points stand.
I haven’t re-listened and maybe my explanation was all over the place on the podcast, but chalk it up to running on no sleep (that’s right, I’m option selecting). I do stand by the above though.
Blow me up for downplaying.
@
FOREVER KING @
HoneyBee @
DarthArma What do you guys think about the match-up?
Also, sorry I can't resist tagging @
WoundCowboy
