What's new

Video/Tutorial - Quan Chi "My MKX Quan Chi time!" @ London Comic-Con by ENDeverMORE

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
This has turned into a instant air teleport discussion thread lol. If you think IAT are a chore, then maybe that character isn't for you. Also, thanks for mentioning the walks speed @PND_Ketchup. No one that played a build has mentioned it yet.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Also, thanks for mentioning the walks speed @PND_Ketchup. No one that played a build has mentioned it yet.
Fairly sure that every post about MKX impressions mentioned that aspect. What was really important about today feedback threads is that it was finally empathized upon running speed telling us that it's fast enough to confirm fullscreen hits into combos as long as said hits have decent hitstun (swarm lift, probably Raiden's traps as well, who knows what else).
Thinking about it, this game may have pretty interesting zoning/counterzoning game.
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
Fairly sure that every post about MKX impressions mentioned that aspect. What was really important about today feedback threads is that it was finally empathized upon running speed telling us that it's fast enough to confirm fullscreen hits into combos as long as said hits have decent hitstun (swarm lift, probably Raiden's traps as well, who knows what else).
Thinking about it, this game may have pretty interesting zoning/counterzoning game.
I'm pretty sure displacer Raiden is going to cause problems for zoners since he can delay his tele and such. I'm looking forward to the diversity this game will offer.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
For the same reason there are four buttons and 8 directions on the controller instead of one giant "press this to do the right thing" button.
I disagree. Those 8 buttons leave me choices that are right or wrong depending on my reads and reaction to situation. There's no choice in "db4 vs udb4" because one of those is always wrong.
To me it just looks like cheap attempt from NRS (after being slandered by eastern communities for "not offering stuff to showcase execution") at simulating stuff like "WGF vs EWGF" or "twister vs JFT" from so-called "real fighting games" where proper execution makes a difference between really good move and really bad move coming out.
I understand that the concept was around for eternity, I just don't see a reason why would someone want to indulge in singleplayer PvInterface minigames while playing competitive PvP game. Instead of coming up with funny inputs I'd rather have players having more real options (and not just situationally right vs always wrong ones like it is with this particular example) if you want more challenging (in a good way) game.

I'm pretty sure displacer Raiden is going to cause problems for zoners since he can delay his tele and such. I'm looking forward to the diversity this game will offer.
Probably. I can see him being anti-zoner. Thing is, people often call some characters "anti-zoners" for having good ranged option that beat out other zoning tools. I'm confused what makes one ranged attack a tool for zoning while another (that can as well be used for keepaway most of the time) is somehow counter-zoning.
I could maybe come up with some ideas how people tell one form another, but I would be making up stuff this way :)
 
Last edited:

testyourpatience

Ya'll stingy
This has turned into a instant air teleport discussion thread lol. If you think IAT are a chore, then maybe that character isn't for you. Also, thanks for mentioning the walks speed @PND_Ketchup. No one that played a build has mentioned it yet.
i just think we shouldn't have extraneous inputs just so tournament players can feel special. i've had enough of that in injustice. at least IAfireballs make sense, but IAteleport? so weird.
 

orochiDragon

PSN OROCHI-dragon / Archangel-44
I wonder y people are arguing about an input, when you can simply practice executing the input...... I guess good execution isn't as important as I thought :DOGE.....
 

trufenix

bye felicia
I disagree. Those 8 buttons leave me choices that are right or wrong depending on my reads and reaction to situation. There's no choice in "db4 vs udb4" because one of those is always wrong.
To me it just looks like cheap attempt from NRS (after being slandered by eastern communities for "not offering stuff to showcase execution") at simulating stuff like "WGF vs EWGF" or "twister vs JFT" from so-called "real fighting games" where proper execution makes a difference between really good move and really bad move coming out.
I understand that the concept was around for eternity, I just don't see a reason why would someone want to indulge in singleplayer PvInterface minigames while playing competitive PvP game. Instead of coming up with funny inputs I'd rather have players having more real options (and not just situationally right vs always wrong ones like it is with this particular example) if you want more challenging (in a good way) game.
Well, you could concoct a ridiculously incorrect conspiracy theorem about it, or you could just take a couple minutes and recognize that the reason air special moves execute faster than grounded specials is because they have natural startup and recovery lag by virtue of the character having to get to the ground before / after it. By doing it immediately off the ground, you are simply cutting out the start up via an execution exploit and reducing that natural lag to zero, not unlocking some super secret top tier version of the move.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Well, you could concoct a ridiculously incorrect conspiracy theorem about it, or you could just take a couple minutes and recognize that the reason air special moves execute faster than grounded specials is because they have natural startup and recovery lag by virtue of the character having to get to the ground before / after it. By doing it immediately off the ground, you are simply cutting out the start up via an execution exploit and reducing that natural lag to zero, not unlocking some super secret top tier version of the move.
I was sarcastic there. Or I wasn't. Anyways.
The thing is, I understand where IA properties come from, but then we run into practical things:

IATP hits faster possibly to make up for the fact that animation features character going to the bottom of the screen which means that if executed mid-jump it will be too slow. Okay. So we must alleviate the issue. Obvious solutions include speeding up the move depending on height; dropping that requirement to descend to very bottom, turning it into fixed range to travel before character disappears. There are many ways to make sure move won't suffer if used in the air unless it's not supposed to be good under those circumstances. By making it flat out faster you make sure it is to-go move considering that this game has no minimum height requirement to speak of.
This means that either you're doing this on purpose (creating execution tax) or you've screwed up opening the move for potential abuses to make it faster than intended (which is I'm fairly sure not the case - NRS sure know much better at this point). Or you're just lazy and don't care, but c'mon...

Same goes for IA projectiles - if devs didn't want them to be hard but effective move relying on execution, they sure could make sure character suffers additional recovery once he lands, but they didn't because they want them to be more than air-to-air projectiles. But at least these aren't no-brainers as of late as IAFBs actually have drawback of not being true mids even if original projectile is (unless we have characters with hilariously large crouching hitbox), for example. Unfortunately, with likes of Sektor's IATP there's no real choice and no guessing game to be made out of it, you only need IATP. Heck, you can even input it like IATP if you're canceling string into grounded teleport and game will still read it as needed, same with actual air TPs. You end up with udb4 move you need for everything TP-related and db4 input you don't ever need. I don't think it's too far-fetched to ask why does "db4 grounded move" even exists and "udb4 move" isn't given bd4 input then.

As I've said, it's impossible to think that devs overlooked how people were practically using their tools for two games already, if they left something like that in the game, they sure did this on purpose.

I wonder y people are arguing about an input, when you can simply practice executing the input...... I guess good execution isn't as important as I thought :DOGE.....
You didn't read that part where I said that there are things that need good execution because those are actually calculated and precisely timed actions you can see on screen, and then there is artificially created difficulty which you wouldn't notice just by seeing what's going on on screen. Believe me, I don't really care if your fingers are on fire doing something awesome, I only care about events created in-game.

You may think of it as of any other interface: it doesn't take anything beyond simple hand gesture to draw a line on your screen using tablet and pen, and it will be awesome if you're good enough with these tools to create sophisticated paintings, but it's not a good idea to ask user to make elaborate gestures with said pen in order to make a simple line appear on a screen. The same basic principle is quite applicable to designing FG interface too IMO.
 
Last edited:

nugava

Noob
I totally agree with Barrogh. And I constantly laugh at players who say "Look what I can do with my Godlike Execution" ! Man if you want props for that, just try to learn one Rhapsody of Franz Liszt and you'll get my recognition...
 

orochiDragon

PSN OROCHI-dragon / Archangel-44
I was sarcastic there. Or I wasn't. Anyways.
The thing is, I understand where IA properties come from, but then we run into practical things:

IATP hits faster possibly to make up for the fact that animation features character going to the bottom of the screen which means that if executed mid-jump it will be too slow. Okay. So we must alleviate the issue. Obvious solutions include speeding up the move depending on height; dropping that requirement to descend to very bottom, turning it into fixed range to travel before character disappears. There are many ways to make sure move won't suffer if used in the air unless it's not supposed to be good under those circumstances. By making it flat out faster you make sure it is to-go move considering that this game has no minimum height requirement to speak of.
This means that either you're doing this on purpose (creating execution tax) or you've screwed up opening the move for potential abuses to make it faster than intended (which is I'm fairly sure not the case - NRS sure know much better at this point). Or you're just lazy and don't care, but c'mon...

Same goes for IA projectiles - if devs didn't want them to be hard but effective move relying on execution, they sure could make sure character suffers additional recovery once he lands, but they didn't because they want them to be more than air-to-air projectiles. But at least these aren't no-brainers as of late as IAFBs actually have drawback of not being true mids even if original projectile is (unless we have characters with hilariously large crouching hitbox), for example. Unfortunately, with likes of Sektor's IATP there's no real choice and no guessing game to be made out of it, you only need IATP. Heck, you can even input it like IATP if you're canceling string into grounded teleport and game will still read it as needed, same with actual air TPs. You end up with udb4 move you need for everything TP-related and db4 input you don't ever need. I don't think it's too far-fetched to ask why does "db4 grounded move" even exists and "udb4 move" isn't given bd4 input then.

As I've said, it's impossible to think that devs overlooked how people were practically using their tools for two games already, if they left something like that in the game, they sure did this on purpose.


You didn't read that part where I said that there are things that need good execution because those are actually calculated and precisely timed actions you can see on screen, and then there is artificially created difficulty which you wouldn't notice just by seeing what's going on on screen. Believe me, I don't really care if your fingers are on fire doing something awesome, I only care about events created in-game.

You may think of it as of any other interface: it doesn't take anything beyond simple hand gesture to draw a line on your screen using tablet and pen, and it will be awesome if you're good enough with these tools to create sophisticated paintings, but it's not a good idea to ask user to make elaborate gestures with said pen in order to make a simple line appear on a screen. The same basic principle is quite applicable to designing FG interface too IMO.
While I respect your opinions, I can't help but get the feeling that this whole discussion comes from the fact that you and so many other casuals want to do the same things pros do, but with no effort......Im sorry some things require more execution than others but if you want the results, put in the time and effort! I remember having to learn how to kara ( throws and etc)and tiger knee projectiles. It was hard and it only gave you a tiny step up, but I stfu and hit the lab. I hate doing 360 command grabs, when other games don't have them but I learned to use it. I don't cry for the devs to change the game simply so I can "hang with the big dogs". I hate this instant gratification mind frame, nobody wants to do the work......
 

orochiDragon

PSN OROCHI-dragon / Archangel-44
I totally agree with Barrogh. And I constantly laugh at players who say "Look what I can do with my Godlike Execution" ! Man if you want props for that, just try to learn one Rhapsody of Franz Liszt and you'll get my recognition...

I hope your kidding....
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
While I respect your opinions, I can't help but get the feeling that this whole discussion comes from the fact that you and so many other casuals want to do the same things pros do, but with no effort......Im sorry some things require more execution than others but if you want the results, put in the time and effort! I remember having to learn how to kara ( throws and etc)and tiger knee projectiles. It was hard and it only gave you a tiny step up, but I stfu and hit the lab. I hate doing 360 command grabs, when other games don't have them but I learned to use it. I don't cry for the devs to change the game simply so I can "hang with the big dogs". I hate this instant gratification mind frame, nobody wants to do the work......
From practical standpoint that's what we will do anyways. I just have your average view of purpose of interface and that's pretty much it. I understand that in this case FG tradition and culture conflict with those. I actually can respect that NRS and some other devs (MikeZ comes to mind) can find compromise between those.
 

orochiDragon

PSN OROCHI-dragon / Archangel-44
From practical standpoint that's what we will do anyways. I just have your average view of purpose of interface and that's pretty much it. I understand that in this case FG tradition and culture conflict with those. I actually can respect that NRS and some other devs (MikeZ comes to mind) can find compromise between those.

Im sorry, I kinda got "in my feelings" as we in the south say lol. Im not the best by any stretch of the imagination, but I have worked hard for my skill ( my excuse for being a little over zealous). I do however see your point lol. Unnecessarily complicated inputs with no real benefits are so annoying.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Im sorry, I kinda got "in my feelings" as we in the south say lol. Im not the best by any stretch of the imagination, but I have worked hard for my skill ( my excuse for being a little over zealous). I do however see your point lol. Unnecessarily complicated inputs with no real benefits are so annoying.
No problem, dude :)
Practical approach and training is how things are done here after all. It'll be a while 'till we'll be able to do that in MKX though, so discussing stuff here is what's left for now, I admit this can come off as whining :p
Meanwhile brb Sektor-ing in MK9 training lol

On a "side" note, that was quite a derailing :D
 

trufenix

bye felicia
I was sarcastic there. Or I wasn't. Anyways.
The thing is, I understand where IA properties come from, but then we run into practical things:
You've been beating this why are IA moves better drum for like days, so it was a pretty safe assumption you have no idea how this actually works.

IATP hits faster possibly to make up for the fact that animation features character going to the bottom of the screen which means that if executed mid-jump it will be too slow. Okay. So we must alleviate the issue. Obvious solutions include speeding up the move depending on height; dropping that requirement to descend to very bottom, turning it into fixed range to travel before character disappears. There are many ways to make sure move won't suffer if used in the air unless it's not supposed to be good under those circumstances. By making it flat out faster you make sure it is to-go move considering that this game has no minimum height requirement to speak of.
This means that either you're doing this on purpose (creating execution tax) or you've screwed up opening the move for potential abuses to make it faster than intended (which is I'm fairly sure not the case - NRS sure know much better at this point). Or you're just lazy and don't care, but c'mon...
Again, this is not a new problem. Nor is it an MK specific problem. The only difference is most games do not have air moves that mimic their ground versions as closely as MK games do. So Akuma's fireball is never going to be more useful than his ground fireball. Most games don't even have any moves that act like tele upper or IAGB because most dev shops don't have the balls or desire to try and balance them. Capcom went balls out with Marvel 3, and it wound up with one of the sharpest most well defined tier lists in the universe, predominately because of which characters have an air game and which don't. But still, go watch a gamerbee match in sf, watch any half decent Filia in Skullgirls or chipp in guilty. Or better yet, go watch any classic MvC2 match. Any one at all. Literally every move in that game is done better if you use its instant air version. This has been a constant thing in fighters since the first SF2:HF player picked Ken and realized he could combo off tatsu if he did it low in the air instead of off the ground.

The reason it is generally tolerated from a balance perspective is that the benefit of instant air use is usually offset by the difficulty of performing it immediately off the ground. And more often than not, if you blow it, you're going to pay for it because now you're hanging in the air defenseless. Unfortunately, MK already has the lowest execution barrier of just about all fighting games so naturally, its instant air game is easier (and therefore more effective) than most.

Same goes for IA projectiles - if devs didn't want them to be hard but effective move relying on execution, they sure could make sure character suffers additional recovery once he lands, but they didn't because they want them to be more than air-to-air projectiles. But at least these aren't no-brainers as of late as IAFBs actually have drawback of not being true mids even if original projectile is (unless we have characters with hilariously large crouching hitbox), for example. Unfortunately, with likes of Sektor's IATP there's no real choice and no guessing game to be made out of it, you only need IATP. Heck, you can even input it like IATP if you're canceling string into grounded teleport and game will still read it as needed, same with actual air TPs. You end up with udb4 move you need for everything TP-related and db4 input you don't ever need. I don't think it's too far-fetched to ask why does "db4 grounded move" even exists and "udb4 move" isn't given bd4 input then.
Congratulations, you've just graduated from fighting game design academy with flying colors. Unfortunately, fighting game making academy is not a magical funland where everything a designer wants to do is possible. If it was as easy as you say to just "make moves lag more depending on how high or low they are used" every fighting game would do it. In reality, almost no games do it. Just about every recent 2d fighter is chocked full of moves that are better (and in some cases only useful at all) with air or instant air timing. Even marvel, a game that is played at least 50% in the air, doesn't variable air lag on specials and it has hitstun decay and variable pushback. Why? Because since its pretty hard (or at least it was, before hitbox) to use instant air timing consistently, its okay if it introduces a slight increase in functionality. It's the same way that wave dashing, armor cancelling, chicken guarding, crouch tech, etc are all "rewards" for maximizing your execution, so are instant air type punishes and reads. Do you think Capcom planned out every 1f link in SF4? Sure, they maybe planned a couple, but overall I'm sure they were just like, hey, if the players figure it out, so be it.

As I've said, it's impossible to think that devs overlooked how people were practically using their tools for two games already, if they left something like that in the game, they sure did this on purpose.
Its a bigger overlook to assume that there is a harmful agenda at work here, and not simply an oversight or design impossibility. The same way that shoddy collision boxes or glitchy animations are just a thing you have to accept from time to time. The "left in on purpose when they could've easily fixed it" scenario you paint is absurd. SF4's links are better than chains and Tekken's JFs are deliberate gameplay systems used to encourage or reward good execution. MK has nothing of the sort. The last MK game that tried anything akin to it was MKvDC's promoves and everybody hated it, which is why we now have stock EX specials.

More to the point, the solution is not just as simple as making all moves the same speed in the air and on the ground. It might work for tele upper and tele stomp, but those pale in comparison to what it would do for gas blast, or fan throw or square wave, or any number of other moves that would be godlike on the ground with airborne timing, or worthless in the air with ground timing. The dream of height based variable recovery / trip guard is a beautiful one, but at the moment its just a pipe dream. Even then you add a bunch of lag to an air projectile, it might be unsafe on hit at certain heights. Would anybody really like a combo that you get punished for cause you hit it a little too high?

No. The only real way around it is height restriction, which, as you've conveniently ignored, is already in Injustice (and I assume MKX). Wether or not its implemented at current who the fuck knows but odds are they're waiting to address that along with all the other balance concerns once the cast is closer to finalized.

Still, even if they do restrict it all to hell, that's not going to stop players from trying to find the lowest possible execution point and find new ways to use air moves. That's the beauty of actually playing and exploring the game instead of just immediately chucking or ignoring a move because it appears "useless". Remember back when Tom Brady, a legitimate member of the community and the QA staff said that MB Trident Rush was "not a great move"?
 

Dr Jackal

Dr__Jackal
Glad you like our videos, yes we have a lot more ;) I am the one who played Quan and we should have 2 complete matchs. Well, for tomorrow if I am still alive.

Oh and we will play mkx during all the week end as well. If you have questions regarding quan please let me knoW
 

testyourpatience

Ya'll stingy
Glad you like our videos, yes we have a lot more ;) I am the one who played Quan and we should have 2 complete matchs. Well, for tomorrow if I am still alive.

Oh and we will play mkx during all the week end as well. If you have questions regarding quan please let me knoW
awesome. just some questions we don't have asnwers to yet.

what does red spell circle do? (assuming you used sorcerer)

what does purple rune do? (sorcerer when standing in purple spell circle)

what does EX trance do?

did you ever feel like trance doesn't stun opponent enough?

is it easy to combo after EX rune without bat? (it looks kind of difficult to followup)

and is there any d'vorah footage?