Question - Ninjitsu Where does Ninjutsu Scorpion stand after today's patch?

[GamerBlake90]

As you may have seen at Summer Jam, and perhaps a few of the Yomi streams the week before, I am now playing Ninjutsu Scorpion.

But rather than go into an elaborate declaration of that fact (as fun as I find it to do that), I made this thread to seek counsel from my fellow Shirai Ryu.

I plan to commit to him as a full-time main, like with RS Kitana. My only concern is whether or not he remains viable in the latest version of the game. So what do you all think of his current standing, and while you're at it, maybe you could tell me what I'm missing out on with this character?

So far, I know the basics:

- when timed as a meaty, F2 destroys armored wake-ups, excluding X-rays. Also catches backdashes.
- B2 is very unsafe, but also an excellent spacing tool that leads to ridiculous meterless damage.
- when spaced correctly, B2 and F2 become less disadvantageous on block, although B2 remains likely to be punished provided they do not mistime their reversal.
- mix-up game with low and overhead is not all that reliable, but I feel his ability to condition the opponent is quite strong. Will elaborate on more if asked.
- strong anti-air game with D2.
- deadly forward-jump-3.
- great down-4 attack. I think it's useful for low-profiling?
- neutral jump attacks are not reliable.

...more that I could list, I think, but I'll slow down and let you all sound off.

 

[Chongo]

on the floor probably

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think his njp is extremely reliable as a form of offense for spacing. It leaves him at perfect range for whiff punishing and throw setups on block.

B2 is pretty unsafe and risky to use but it's very rewarding on a good read. Really works well for whiff punishing and even catching people trying to walk back out of his range.

The thing about ninjitsu is that people just block constantly because of his disadvantage after his f2 and b2. Nobody wants to get hit by that. In turn it allows you in a lot of cases to just abuse running up to grab/pressure until you can start baiting counter pokes. Throw in a little yolo teleport and I think Ninjitsu is honestly his strongest variation in a lot of matches.

His best strings imo are b121 and 114. Both are -1 but against a lot of the cast he can still d1 check because his is 6 frames which leads to good frame advantage on hit. This opens up other options as well.

I think he's a solid upper mid tier character at this point.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Also great normals like st1 and st4 that leave him at +2. St4 can be especially good because of the range it pushes back.

Also B32f2 while unsafe has some good uses because of its chase and the pretty long range low. With conditioning this string works well.

 

[Matix218]

I'll post my thoughts in here later after work

 

[Phosferrax]

Probably low mid.

He has lots of problems.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Probably low mid.

He has lots of problems.

What are the specific issues that you think bring him down to low mid?

 

[Phosferrax]

What are the specific issues that you think bring him down to low mid?

When people ask what are his good moves, everyone always says d4. When d4 (which isn't even as good as most people think) is your best normal, you know there is problem.

His footsies are weak compared to most of the cast (people just see the range of Ninjitsu but there is more too footsies than range) and his offense is comparatively weak. It seems like it is either offense or range, when most of the cast have both.

 

[Matix218]

When people ask what are his good moves, everyone always says d4. When d4 (which isn't even as good as most people think) is your best normal, you know there is problem.

His footsies are weak compared to most of the cast (people just see the range of Ninjitsu but there is more too footsies than range) and his offense is comparatively weak. It seems like it is either offense or range, when most of the cast have both.

How many characters have a move with f2's range that also hits twice (breaks armored wakeups with a full combo launch) and is as relatively safe (at max range) as Ninjitsu f2? Having an attack like this conditions your opponent to block and any move that conditions your opponent to block in jump in (or closer) range means they are now open to getting thrown over and over or getting pressured by other attacks, b1, b12 tick throws, b3, j3, etc. You cant just block and take chip and throw after throw forever which forces them to eventually try to press a button which again, can get blown up by f2 (also a great ranged whiff punisher). Also any time you hit anything f2, b2, 1, njp, etc they are launched for good meterless damage and you can choose to end in standing reset or a big frame advantage hard knockdown to setup his awesome oki where people are afraid to use their wake up moves. D4 is only considered not great because at max range you don't get guaranteed block string pressure but he is not that type of character anyway.

 

[bdizzle2700]

on the floor probably

Beat me to it.

 

[Phosferrax]

How many characters have a move with f2's range that also hits twice (breaks armored wakeups with a full combo launch) and is as relatively safe (at max range) as Ninjitsu f2? Having an attack like this conditions your opponent to block and any move that conditions your opponent to block in jump in (or closer) range means they are now open to getting thrown over and over or getting pressured by other attacks, b1, b12 tick throws, b3, j3, etc. You cant just block and take chip and throw after throw forever which forces them to eventually try to press a button which again, can get blown up by f2 (also a great ranged whiff punisher). Also any time you hit anything f2, b2, 1, njp, etc they are launched for good meterless damage and you can choose to end in standing reset or a big frame advantage hard knockdown to setup his awesome oki where people are afraid to use their wake up moves. D4 is only considered not great because at max range you don't get guaranteed block string pressure but he is not that type of character anyway.

I just don't buy this bill that Ninjitsu is going to win off f2 and throw. He has range, but no offense. In MKX, it is very hard to play without offense if you don't have something to compensate for it. A lot of the case don't even sacrifice their turn for their footsies, but Scorpion (if he doesn't get punished on block) has to just sit and take whatever the opponent wants to do next outside of max range. And this then puts the opponent in the space that is the worst possible space for Scorpion.

Standing at midscreen and hoping to whiff punish isn't enough in the long wrong.

 

[Matix218]

I just don't buy this bill that Ninjitsu is going to win off f2 and throw. He has range, but no offense. In MKX, it is very hard to play without offense if you don't have something to compensate for it. A lot of the case don't even sacrifice their turn for their footsies, but Scorpion (if he doesn't get punished on block) has to just sit and take whatever the opponent wants to do next outside of max range. And this then puts the opponent in the space that is the worst possible space for Scorpion.

Standing at midscreen and hoping to whiff punish isn't enough in the long wrong.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said which is why I feel that Ninjitsu scorpion is a middle of the pack mid tier character in the grand scheme of the game. I think that he has his strengths as I pointed out above but he cannot maintain pressure and it requires some risk or a hard read often times to open up any damage. He does not have mixups Or continuous pressure on the level of many of the top tier characters and I still believe at the higest level we may actually find that hellfire could still end up being his best variation due to him having more ways to open you up and mix up/pressure you. No one here was claiming that he is top tier, we all agree he is somewhere in the mid tier. But you can win games by making people afraid to press a button or wake up, it is viable. Blake did exactly this at SJ and did really well. The nerfs to some of the top tier in the recent patch only helps scorpion as well since he did not change at all (at least in Ninjitsu)

 

[Scoot Magee]

When people ask what are his good moves, everyone always says d4. When d4 (which isn't even as good as most people think) is your best normal, you know there is problem.

His footsies are weak compared to most of the cast (people just see the range of Ninjitsu but there is more too footsies than range) and his offense is comparatively weak. It seems like it is either offense or range, when most of the cast have both.

I remember people talking about his d4 being bad due to it's hit advantage but it is only 8 frames and has great range. I'm not sure of the exact hit advantage but after the patch it's +18 on hit, I think it was at like 12 before right?

I think range is a huge factor in footsies. I thought his d4 was always good because it's a long range fast low that grants good advantage. When that's combined with flame aura/Ninjitsu f2, grabs and etc I think his footsie game is pretty strong. St1 is amazing as well as st 4, mostly after a teleport.

B121 and 114 also leave him at -1 which grants enough time for a d1 check vs a lot of the cast. In a lot of cases you can back dash or even walk back afterwards as well. If you read any retaliation after those strings you can even throw out a risky ex teleport. It may not be what people want to risk but imo you have to throw out shit like that once in a while to keep them honest.

I've always been a chronic up player though lol.

 

[GamerBlake90]

The range of your attacks is a greater threat than most players give it credit for. It's not always about hitting the opponent with said options.

That's why I love Ninjutsu so much. <3

 

[Scoot Magee]

I just don't buy this bill that Ninjitsu is going to win off f2 and throw. He has range, but no offense. In MKX, it is very hard to play without offense if you don't have something to compensate for it. A lot of the case don't even sacrifice their turn for their footsies, but Scorpion (if he doesn't get punished on block) has to just sit and take whatever the opponent wants to do next outside of max range. And this then puts the opponent in the space that is the worst possible space for Scorpion.

Standing at midscreen and hoping to whiff punish isn't enough in the long wrong.

Like I said in my previous post IMO you have to take some risks with Scorpion to keep people honest. I think it's the best way to play him but in the end it does keep him around mid tier. B121 and 114 must be used a lot up close as well as grabs. You will get a read and get some whiff punishes going. You really need to have good knowledge of the ranges of other characters too.

 

[Scoot Magee]

The range of your attacks is a greater threat than most players give it credit for. It's not always about hitting the opponent with said options.

That's why I love Ninjutsu so much. <3

Yes it how players react to the range that you have that must be abused. People respect that range a lot which opens up options. St1 throw, 114, b121, stagger the strings and etc. You can practically run up and do anything you want because of the massive f2 respect.

 

[Slips]

I don't know I go back and forth between what I like better between Ninjitsu and Hellfire. I think it's just preference. There's no doubt Ninjitsu has better whiff punishing and more range in footsies and better njp. Just a more constricting midscreen game by far.

Hellfire meanwhile has better mixups, better damage and a zoning presence.

It's a pretty even trade-off. Pick what you like best.

 

[Scoot Magee]

What was the original hit advantage of Scorpions d4?

 

[Ze Dingo]

I share the opinion of Slips. I honestly can't decide most of the time. On one hand, you can condition your opponent with Ninjutsu and blow them up.

On the other, you have Hellfire, with the mixups and unblockable, that if people misread, you blow them up with JB3 or JF3.

It's a tough decision, but play what you feel comfortable with.

I'd say Scorpion is solid mid tier. He's a great character in his own right, but the rest of the cast has dirt bordering on the ridiculous.

Cheers and welcome to the Shirai Ryu

 

[STRYKIE]

What was the original hit advantage of Scorpions d4?

+18, always has been. In the grand scheme of things it's still not really adequate. Especially with Non-Ninjutsu F2 being slower now.

When d4 (which isn't even as good as most people think) is your best normal, you know there is problem.

Somewhat besides the point, but I have to disagree with this. A well placed D4 from characters like Raiden, Shinnok or Erron is sometimes all they need to initiate the curtain call despite their standing normals not doing well to tick multiple boxes in the neutral.

Ultimately I do think Scorpion needs improvement in other areas before the same could be said about him, but let's not bang that drum just yet, because a lot of people wrote off Shinnok day 1 and now fuel their propaganda about him with his day 1 tools.

 

[DarkFire*]

I'd say overall he's upper mid tier, mid tier at worst. I honestly think he's top 15, or at worse just outside of it (as in, #16, no worse than that IMO). Both Ninjutsu and Hellfire are right next to each other I'd say.

He still has above average footsies (in Ninjutsu), good damage, great pokes, good antizoning capabilities, and pretty good mixups (in Hellfire). Honestly IMO his only real weaknesses is he can't establish pressure well, and his reversals are pretty meh. But then again I feel like he as a character is designed to force his opponents to make mistakes and/or make them scared of either B2 (in Ninjutsu), Flame Aura (in Hellfire), or even low Minion grab (in Inferno), where he can then go in and go for mixups. So I'd definitely say he is a solid character, definitely viable

 

[Phosferrax]

+18, always has been. In the grand scheme of things it's still not really adequate. Especially with Non-Ninjutsu F2 being slower now.


Somewhat besides the point, but I have to disagree with this. A well placed D4 from characters like Raiden, Shinnok or Erron is sometimes all they need to initiate the curtain call despite their standing normals not doing well to tick multiple boxes in the neutral.

Ultimately I do think Scorpion needs improvement in other areas before the same could be said about him, but let's not bang that drum just yet, because a lot of people wrote off Shinnok day 1 and now fuel their propaganda about him with his day 1 tools.

A lot of people chat shit and forget that he was buffed to the moon. Shinnok is a much better character than he was day 1, Scorpion is not.

 

[Eddy Wang]

The range of your attacks is a greater threat than most players give it credit for. It's not always about hitting the opponent with said options.

That's why I love Ninjutsu so much. <3

NInjutsu rewards players with a good space awareness and extremely fast reactions, you can teleport out of panic offense and punish players for not trying to respect scoprion options. you can also 114~ex spear against people trying to run in or start a string outside range fearing F2, he doesn't randomly throws F2 or B2.

ppl bad at playing foosties will say scorpion is bad.

The only thing i think scorpion is in need, is overeall walk backwards speed to be increased, this would make his walking game worth enough to make his defense game matter in any variation.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I just can't agree that scorpions d4 is bad. Great range, 8 frames a +18 on hit. Sure people can armor out if they want vs hellfire and inferno but it's a huge risk. Scorpion punishes very well and I think it balances that out.

 

[K3DC]

Have we had any success in tournament yet? I know there was one Ninjutsu player who made top 8 in Europe, but he eliminated rather quickly. Personally I don't think Ninjutsu has the tools he needs to close out games. I think he relies on an opponent to make mistakes, but that's just my perception. I'm still looking for some high level Ninjutsu play, so that I may learn and adjust both my thinking and play style, but I've yet to see anything as of recent.