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What happened to truth and light?

Cp912

Noob
I picked this up thinking it was good that he had all of his lightning tools and hope that Jo push combo extension would be fun and creative....boy was I wrong. None of the Jo push combo connecting like they are supposed too the staff attacks are useless and not well thought out. It's a randomness too it that makes it hard to do a true set up and as far as the lightning attacks...let's just say it's hard to do anything worthwhile. I think this is one of the worst variations in the game but If they revisit it in the future and fix bugs it has potential.. something different. What's your overall opinion?
 

kabelfritz

Master
Been messing around in practice a bit. Maybe we can have a serious discussion how to make this variation somewhat work.

1st of all, i dont think this variation was mainly designed with a certain gameplay, but with certain lore/aesthetics in mind:
They wanted one where he does a lot with his staff.

So to the moves:

Lightning Rod:
Pretty obvious, strengthens your zoning tools. Opponents cant duck Lightning Bolt or read the position of Lighning strike anymore. so its a tiny improvement to your ability to force your game upon them for a moment.

Lighning Rod AMP imo has 2 functions:
First, the AMP version denies the opponent movement. So you could make an unsafe string somewhat safe by ending it in AMP Lightning Rod, which will then likely interrupt a punish.
Second, it can lockdown zoners: But even while the likes of the sonyas dont mind just standing inside it and shoot rings, they will not be able to punish your approach towards them with advancing attacks.

i have not explored Lightning Rod (+AMP) in combos much, but it seems it does not consistently connect as ender on juggled opponents. So if you use it as ender, you have it out but give up your turn.

Overall, Lightning Rod can work OK as tool to control space and pace of the game - a meta-instrument to set up your game. Which is where the problems start, because Truth and Light doesnt have much of that. I can imagine setting up your approach and frustrating opponents with Lightning Rod(+AMP), then baiting whiff punishes or mix them up up close, while making unsuccessful attempts safer with LR AMP. if you get a juggle, ending it with LR can set up the initial scenario again.

Jo Push: Corner combos and an occasional sideswitch, as well as AMP/no AMP mixup. I can imagine poke~Jo Push being effective to end pressure, as the AMP can be done on block. The AMP can whiff midscreen depending on the starting string. it also takes away your best combo ender with electric flight (Summon Lightning will often whiff on female hitboxes). As combo ender it doesnt knock them far away and probably doesnt allow a safe lightning rod follow-up. So id save it for corner combos and side switches mainly. in a patch the midscreen whiffing should be adressed.

Conclusion of this little approach:

Truth and light supports the typical gameplan of the Raidens in a quirky way: Space and pace control, whiff punishing and defense, then mixups up close or in the corner. he can make his risky offensive approaches safer and get out of pressure in multiple ways, which he absolutely needs, since his own offensive options are barely present in the neutral. its a complex gameplan that might somehow work though. His added specials are highly situational and mostly setup his stock moveset.
 

kabelfritz

Master
ok, been in the lab some more. this variation could actually be good. try implementing d4~Lighting Rod AMP (normal works too) into your gameplan. its actually godlike.
 

kabelfritz

Master
How so? As in trapping them in the bubble for free pressure?
i dont think he ever gets a lot of free pressure. but a well spaced d4~LR AMP leaves them exactly on the border of the sphere and extremely limits their options. i think TaL sets up mind games, space control and most of all frustration with this, but no safe pressure.

just took him online and got bodied, this character definitely sucks ass if you dont exactly know what youre doing. its mainly because in the neutral it is as good as never your turn. but im not giving up yet, i believe he can be way better than believed.
 

Marlow

Champion
I made a couple posts about him in the Updated Combo thread I put together. I have some thoughts on him in there, feel free to check that out. My favorite thing is that if you can land F4 or F2 into Amped Rod, it actually combos and leaves Raiden super plus at point blank range next to his opponent.

I think the main game plan with T&L is finding ways to get plus frames, and then going for different strings or throws to try and frame trap the opponent. Jo Push is his main launcher and damage getter, so I think always having one bar at the ready, and being ready at all times to hit confirm into Jo Push, is essential.

He might have some setup potential or wakeup pressure with the amped Rod, but in general I find that to be took gimmicky and too inefficient.
 
It's a stupid variation that needs an overhaul. I usually give things the benefit of the doubt but as I've said in other threads the tools given in this variation conflict with each other, which makes it an instant failure.

Jo Push has no business being 2 slots in its current state, and got nerfed to lose its mood screen combo (wtf?) and takes away our best move.
Equipping this ability actually nerfs Raiden.

Rods don't stay planted long enough to be properly utilized, yet have a manual recall input?

Rod by itself is a cool move that is currently in handcuffs; it could be great but is being held back by its short duration when planted. This, at minimum, should be increased or removed entirely.
 

Metin

Ermac & Smoke Main
i think they just put the abilities on this variation without thinking they are working or not cos none of the developer beings gonna dare to release a garbage variation like this.
 

Marlow

Champion
and got nerfed to lose its mood screen combo
You can still combo mid screen with Jo Push.

Rod by itself is a cool move that is currently in handcuffs; it could be great but is being held back by its short duration when planted. This, at minimum, should be increased or removed entirely.
I'd love rod to just be out indefinite, and lengthen the amount of time the amped bubble is up. That way the recall would actually serve a purpose, and spending the amp to create the bubble might actually be worthwhile.
 
You can still combo mid screen with Jo Push.
Can it? What do you have to do differently?
Any attempts to f4 after amp have all whiffed for me; for whatever reason they made the launch push them out further than before the v3 patch
(can't believe they actually nerfed this move).

I'd love rod to just be out indefinite, and lengthen the amount of time the amped bubble is up. That way the recall would actually serve a purpose, and spending the amp to create the bubble might actually be worthwhile.
Agreed, I feel that because the recall input exists at all this might have been the original plan for the move. Why they decided to put it to a 3 second duration or so is extremely confusing considering how long it takes for this character to actually use his projectiles on it.

The mere fact Jo Push and Rod cannot be used together is quite mind blowing to me that anyone could look at those two moves and think they ought to be paired up.

The only disadvantage I can think of with making rod indefinite is we now have to spend animation frames on recall instead of the rod returning on its own while we're free to do other actions, but honestly I think the added utility of no rod duration would still be worth it.
 

Marlow

Champion
Can it? What do you have to do differently?
Any attempts to f4 after amp have all whiffed for me; for whatever reason they made the launch push them out further than before the v3 patch
(can't believe they actually nerfed this move).
I'm not sure, maybe it's just a stricter timing thing, just a smaller window. When I was putting together the Combo thread I was able to do things mid screen like B12-Jo Push-F4-DB2 fairly consistently.

The cool thing about having the rod out indefinitely is that then it could potentially lead to some cool combos where you end in Lighting Strike or Lightening Bolt, depending on where the opponent is in relation to the rod, and get the extra hit from the rod for some damage or restand possibility. I love games where you can sacrifice one thing early in order to get a potential bigger payoff later, so that would make his gameplay much more interesting to me.


As it stands now, I think you could make a solid argument that a variation-less Raiden is actually a better character than T&L, just because then he'd at least have his Super Man back.
 

kabelfritz

Master
Can it? What do you have to do differently?
Any attempts to f4 after amp have all whiffed for me; for whatever reason they made the launch push them out further than before the v3 patch
(can't believe they actually nerfed this move).
f4 juggle after the amp can be done from every starter that has the opponent at sweep range the moment you cancel into jo push. 12, b12, b31, f11 all work, while f4 doesnt because the opponent is point blank the moment you cancel into jo push.
 
Oh I see, I was being a dumbass and only tested from f4, which they definitely took away for no reason.

As it stands now, I think you could make a solid argument that a variation-less Raiden is actually a better character than T&L, just because then he'd at least have his Super Man back.
Yes exactly, this move is not even close to being worth 2 slots yet.
 
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