What does the learning curve refer to?

[Qwark28]

I feel like this is a stupid question but i don't exactly compute,what is it refering to?learning to read?Countering?correct rushdown?

 

[eskuAdradit0]

I feel like this is a stupid question but i don't exactly compute,what is it refering to?learning to read?Countering?correct rushdown?

All your following questions make them in the "ask shang" thread in this forum.

Anyway, "learning curve" refers to the time and amount of effort it takes to learn the character in contrast to other characters in this game. A character with a high learning curve is a character that is not so easy to pick up and play, and that rather you have to fully commit yourself to the character in order to learn him "well" (standard usage of the character). It is said that Shang has one of the hardest learning curves in this game. I do not agree, though.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

It is said that Shang has one of the hardest learning curves in this game. I do not agree, though.

I do agree with that, Shang himself doesn't have much of a learning curve in comparison to someone like Kabal. However, if you want to do very well with Shang it's obviously encouraged to learn good morph combos, which requires investing time into other characters which you may not have much of an interest in. Though with the recent news of all of his strings being duckable and morph leading to unblockable combos right as he comes out of it...he clearly has some HUGE flaws.

 

[Flagg]

Take two characters like, Kano and Skarlet.

You'll probably be able to pick up Kano and master his combos quicker than Skarlet and you will likely be effective with Kano in a shorter time span then you would with Skarlet.

I personally think characters like Kano and Cage are among the easier characters to use, where as Skarlet, Sonya and Kabal are among the harder.

 

[eskuAdradit0]

I do agree with that, Shang himself doesn't have much of a learning curve in comparison to someone like Kabal. However, if you want to do very well with Shang it's obviously encouraged to learn good morph combos, which requires investing time into other characters which you may not have much of an interest in. Though with the recent news of all of his strings being duckable and morph leading to unblockable combos right as he comes out of it...he clearly has some HUGE flaws.

It's funny because I was just thinking of Kabal too.
Thing is, there is no Shang morph combo that you should capitalize on learning, and that takes away a big part of his supposedly "high" learning curve.
Most of his morph combos (those who start out morphed and end with a soul steal) are really situational, more than any other thing I can think of in this game:
1. You'll never land a combo as soon as you morph. Not with EX SS or regular SS.
2. You'll never have enough time and space to land that morph combo that starts just 2 seconds after the EX SS.
3. I can't really be sure on this, but I think you're at frame disadvantage when you morph(46f after SS's first hit). So when you morph you're bound to an attack, and when you unmorph you're gonna get bodied as well.
4. Even when the morph combos weren't situational, you'd only have to learn only the characters that are bad matchups for Shang(or those who outzone him). With the easy dial-in combos and easy-input in MK, that's not a big issue, so it does not suppose a high learning curve.
5. Thing is, though, combos are really situational, so you shouldn't be trying to combo, but to use pressure strings(which are safe launchers in mk, lul), which will result in learning for your opponent to back out, and by the time you're applying your pressure, you'll unmorph and get a taste of your "own" medicine.

Soul steal does add some in-depth to the game, but it's not that killer move that a lot of people portray it to be. It has it's flaws and I can imagine it's really hard for any game studio to implement and balance well.
Other stuff that make him have a high learning curve? Well Shang is one of those characters that have a theorical use of all of his strings. Antiairs, footsies, pokes, zoning, counter zoning, etc are just as hard as with any other character in the game. Only thing that really implies thinking outside the box is his zoning. Being it so slow it's not easy to catchup against other character's zoning. Plus, zoning with his soul steal requires a lot of thinking, but the payoff isn't as good as we can see by the points explained above.

Also, Shang combo's are not hard in any way whatsoever. Wanna continue the pressure? Use upskull. Then the generic combo is either b2, f3 mixup or launcher into mid, far and ex ground skull. It only requires adjusting to the timing at first, and that's as hard as it gets.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Yeah, I agree with SS combos being totally situational, however if totally makes your opponent second guess themselves; take Detroit vs CD at NEC for instance. It can really mess with someone's head "Oh fuck, I'm getting bodied by my own character!"

 

[eskuAdradit0]

But that does not imply it's a high learning curve, does it? (not trying to be a smartass btw, just regular healthy discussion)
There isn't much science tbh.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Agreed. Sonya and Kabal are really the only high learning curve characters that I feel are in the game.

 

[Qwark28]

could you explain to me how is kabal hard to learn other than the ridiculous combos?because i sure admire someone who can do a NDC on a b121''d opponent then f4,ndc again and continue pressure but isn't kabal mostly about iagb and learning how to dash cancel properly?

also what would you say shang is tier wise?

 

[GNG Iniquity]

could you explain to me how is kabal hard to learn other than the ridiculous combos?because i sure admire someone who can do a NDC on a b121''d opponent then f4,ndc again and continue pressure but isn't kabal mostly about iagb and learning how to dash cancel properly?

also what would you say shang is tier wise?

Yeah, it's the constant NDCs that make Kabal tough. As well as the iagbs which I personally cannot do on a pad, I can however do them easily on a hitbox. I think we've done away with the tier lists for now as the data we had was pretty inconclusive but I'd say Shang is mid tier. There's a thread in the Shang forum detailing all his strings being duckable and the fact that when he comes out of morph that he'll be eating an unblockable big combo has bumped him down a bit. After Detroit won NEC with him, when he was very unexplored, people have taken the time to find his weaknesses.

 

[eskuAdradit0]

[MENTION=3472]IniquityDM[/MENTION] Weaknesses have always been here. There's the guide mentioning the morph glitch and players talking about his weaknesses in this subforum. I know I'm not the only shang player who knew about his weakness before DB won NEC. I believe it's just the players' fault for not paying attention to this subforum. (it's DEAD)

I only released the strings' info because I'm not attending the WPGames (which is being streamed right now btw) and I'm most likely done with the game.

[MENTION=5225]Qwark28[/MENTION] He's prolly mid tier. I mean, even though all of his strings suck, F4, Close Ground skull is an absolute fantastic tool. It's just sooo versatile. Without it Shang gets pooned.

Kabal and Sonya are just harder because they're harder execution wise. Try to do 2, NDC consistently on a pad. Try to land jk, air gas blast consistently without a stick or hitbox. Plus, you gotta learn that brand new kabal pressure system, check out frame data, etc. Sonya's military stance into instant dive kick can be pretty tricky compared to Shang's tools execution. Only problems you'd have with Shang is D1 into Soul Steal or F4, GS if you have big thumbs.

All in all this game isn't too hard execution-wise, and that's why I say there's no such thing as a high learning curve in this game, unless compared to other characters in the same game, like comparing Kabal to Sub-zero. Not that it's a bad thing. And this comes from a console FPS player.

 

[mekane]

personally, i think shang is much harder to use than other characters i play with. i don't think the inputs on combos are super easy, it seems like i slightly will miss time linking the fireballs or the back end of the EX GS combos, and F4-GS doesn't always come out.... he doesn't have an easy defense against cross overs since his upper cut is slow, and his zoning is not real easy either since its a little slow, and his wakeup option requires meter and it can be crossed up, and because most of his strings aren't advancing, i seem to eat a lot of crossups since they will wiff and i eat a cross up combo.

maybe these aren't big issues for tournament quality players, but for more casual players like myself, I have a much easier time playing Jax, for example, and even Kabal. With kabal, nobody can jump at you, you have much better wakeup option, you have an advancing string of F3-2 so you don't eat cross ups on whiff, and his combos are easier to pull off (on a spinning opponent in the air, input U/R B B 3/4 1 for the air kick - > air gas blast, comes out every time) and i really don't think if you just use the F3 B2 F4 NDC doesn't really rqeuire that much practice and you can end it with a saw or overhead, or continue the string again for fairly effective pressure.

Because of these weaknesses, you have to deal with crossups with excellent timed d1 into combo (very hard), and using your dash-->d3 at just the right time to avoid getting hit. you have to be smarter on wakeup, on zoning, and not whiffing a string when u can be crossed up, more NJP / d1 at the start of their jump... none of these things are easy.

maybe its harder to be great with Kabal like REO with his crazy NDC pressure, but I find it a lot easier to be "good" with Kabal than Shang, although maybe what I'm really saying is that Kabal is just a better character.

 

[Flagg]

Do people think Kabal is "technical", just because of nomad dash cancel?? That's like saying Sindel is really technical because of Levi cancel (which is harder to do than NDC).

I don't think Shang T'Sung is a technical character. What I do think though is you have to be 100% consistant and have sharp execution skills to play him. Because he has a plethora of fireballs, inputting the wrong fireball at the wrong time leaves him wide open. And knowing what fireball to throw.

Skarlet and Sonya. Those are the two hardest characters to master. Everyone else is below those two.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Easy learning curve : Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Cyrax, Mileena
Hard learning curve : Skarlet, Shang Tsung, Sheeva, Sonya

The rest of roster, more or less as "overall medium" learning curve, depends in how high level you wanna play certain character, and how dedicated you are.

 

[Flagg]

I forgot to add, but I believe Freddy has a Hard learning curve as well. His reset combos are a lot harder to do in a pinch compared to Cyraxes.

 

[eskuAdradit0]

[MENTION=8632]mekane[/MENTION]

For crossups, just D3 to lower your hitbox (only jumpkicks can hit you) and then D1 into AA combo. Works everytime. I have yet to find a good reliable anticrossup tool with Kabal. That's probably my biggest issue with him.
I'd suggest you getting a hitbox or stick for the F4, GS. Seems like your thumbs may be too big and you're hitting "backward" on your way to down, up, 4.

[MENTION=9225]Flagg[/MENTION]

Well tbf, Kabal's "infinite" (2,NDC, 2, NDC) is much harder than F3,2, NDC, which nowadays won't get you far. Sindel's execution is harder than average Kabal's, but the payoff for Kabal is much better
I would not say, however, that Sindel has a below-average learning curve. Would YOU say so?

 

[Flagg]

[MENTION=8632]mekane[/MENTION]

For crossups, just D3 to lower your hitbox (only jumpkicks can hit you) and then D1 into AA combo. Works everytime. I have yet to find a good reliable anticrossup tool with Kabal. That's probably my biggest issue with him.
I'd suggest you getting a hitbox or stick for the F4, GS. Seems like your thumbs may be too big and you're hitting "backward" on your way to down, up, 4.

[MENTION=9225]Flagg[/MENTION]

Well tbf, Kabal's "infinite" (2,NDC, 2, NDC) is much harder than F3,2, NDC, which nowadays won't get you far. Sindel's execution is harder than average Kabal's, but the payoff for Kabal is much better
I would not say, however, that Sindel has a below-average learning curve. Would YOU say so?

No. Is SIndel hard to pick up? I wouldn't say so. Is she hard to win with, be effective with, then I would definitely say yes!

 

[mekane]

[MENTION=8632]mekane[/MENTION]
For crossups, just D3 to lower your hitbox (only jumpkicks can hit you) and then D1 into AA combo. Works everytime. I have yet to find a good reliable anticrossup tool with Kabal. That's probably my biggest issue with him.
I'd suggest you getting a hitbox or stick for the F4, GS. Seems like your thumbs may be too big and you're hitting "backward" on your way to down, up, 4.

Yeah but I find it difficult. I play smoke a lot and if the jumpkick -> air throw hits you it still does a lot of damage, so he just constantly jumps on me, and I have found that trying to d1 at the start of his cross over is difficult because there's such a small window where it will connect, and reacting quickly enough to do dash -> f4,3 on hit is not easy for me, this seems like a top level player tactic, not one for a casual player like me. i actually have had more success in close quarters at jumping myself and instantly doing an air kick to counter his tactics, but smoke's air kick is better than shangs.

with kabal, i use ex nomad dash, but that is meter dependent i guess. jax is my main so the cross up defense is still fairly new to me since its so easy with jax. he has such a good d1, upper cut, and LOL air gotchya grab invincibility.