Menu
By:
Filters
What's new

Breakthrough - Ruthless Using pain and gain to punish UN punishable reversals and wake ups

Cooljaxx

Cooljaxx

Mkx is the name , Mix is the game
Hey guys back in the lab here :DOGE,
I was labbing the pain and gain frame data (put in another thread) and I noticed that I was somehow punishing EX Shadow kick, now I don't know if many of you know but Ex shadow kick is safe.... Is it somehow punishing during the active frames? Example:
With this you can also find out how plus a pain and gain cancel is!
@Doombawkz @oaoo94 @Kamikaze_Highlander @Ferra torr mains @bdogg0100 @Blewdew
 
Last edited:
Cooljaxx

Cooljaxx

Mkx is the name , Mix is the game
Update: we have officially broken pain and gain:
That move is actually PLUS 12 ON BLOCK. And as you can see that AI is on auto block. Care to explain?
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
When a move hits armor, you no longer count in the block advantage. It goes into recovery, memory serving, after clicking off of your armor. This is why normally plus attacks like EX low stab and EX shadow kick can be punished.

Also, the timing of the enemy attack and the timing of your armor are creating a situation where your animation ends right as they click into you. This is causing a discrepancy in data, and would happen with almost any armored attack. You should do your testing using something to the effect of b.12 into a raw PnG, then try cancelling out of it after being tapped and punishing the opponent. This would put you in a neutral state and would provide more reliable data on what can and cannot be realistically punished using Pain and Gain as a soak.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Not at all, there's use in all things.
This thread, at the very least, accented the viability of using PnG cancels in strings to deter the opponent from mashing armor trying to escape.
It creates a savage mind game with b.121xxOH toss since the opponent will have to spend their bar risking the toss in order to avoid being stuck in our +10 jail.

Also makes it so backdashing b.121xxOH in the corner is no longer a viable strategy, as a PnG cancel would punish it for a full combo.

It's also worth mentioning the value this thread has in regards to showing how PnG armor acts when massively plus moves are used on it, and the absurd situations this can cause as a result.

In your other thread you mentioned 2f.4 as an odd-sheep in terms of the cancel, and as it happens 2f.4 xxOH toss is a great corner string as it jails and provides a bit of distance. As it so happens, if you were to say so 2f.4xxPnG on an opponent who is respecting the toss, you could get a jump in (assuming your cancel is crisp enough) and have enough time to force your opponent into another situation like that, between 2f.4xxPnG, 2f.4xxOH toss, and 2f.4xxlow toss.

It's a valuable thread, just perhaps not for the reasons you thought.
 
tatterbug4

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
This is really huge for punishing wake ups. Think about it. You just did a 42% combo. Your PnG is still active for a little longer. You PnG again on a read that their going to wake up your PnG armors through it and you do a combo that makes them regret everything.
 
tatterbug4

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
I'm liking all these ferra torr threads because I'm picking him up after learning hes actually pretty good now. But these threads are starting to make me think he is too good lol
 
Cooljaxx

Cooljaxx

Mkx is the name , Mix is the game
tatterbug4 said:
I'm liking all these ferra torr threads because I'm picking him up after learning hes actually pretty good now. But these threads are starting to make me think he is too good lol
Click to expand...
Ferra torr is a very solid character. Vicious isn't as good as the other 2 but it's alright. Ferra torr all together may be top 10 but not top 5. But they are very underplayed,
 
Trauma_and_Pain

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
Block advantage only applies when the opponent actually blocks, putting them in blockstun.

Hit advantage only applies when the opponent is hit, entering hitstun (which armor prevents).

Armoring through with a move like P&G is simply a matter of you doing a faster attack than them, which is why very quick double-hitting moves punish P&G.

Doombawkz said:
Vicious > Lackey.
Just putting that out there.
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
Kamikaze_Highlander

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
Armour only prevents your character from going into hit stun, and since we can run cancel it we can take a hit then punish during the rest of their active/recovery frames.

So yea kinda pointless thread as this is one of the major uses of PnG. But still nice to have a thread for it I guess.
 
Kamikaze_Highlander

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
Doombawkz said:
How is Vicious, a variation with great counter-zoning and pressure tools and winning MUs...
Worse than Lackey, a variation who struggles to do what it was designed to do and has absolutely NO winning MUs?
Click to expand...
Vicious places better in mu simply because too many characters have strong zoning tools. Comparing just the three variations I put it R <L <V, lackey struggles are based more in mkx mechanics than the actual character.

I just think what you lose picking vicious over ruthless isn't as good as lackey's best tools.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Kamikaze_Highlander said:
Vicious places better in mu simply because too many characters have strong zoning tools. Comparing just the three variations I put it R <L <V, lackey struggles are based more in mkx mechanics than the actual character.

I just think what you lose picking vicious over ruthless isn't as good as lackey's best tools.
Click to expand...
You mean d.1 and literally nothing else? Sure.
What you lose picking Lackey in general is more than you lose picking between any of the other variations.
Barebones > Lackey
 
dennycascade

dennycascade

UPR_ghastem
Doombawkz said:
How is Vicious, a variation with great counter-zoning and pressure tools and winning MUs...
Worse than Lackey, a variation who struggles to do what it was designed to do and has absolutely NO winning MUs?
Click to expand...
Not even kotal? Lackey is probably the hardest kotal counterpick in the game imo.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
dennycascade said:
Not even kotal? Lackey is probably the hardest kotal counterpick in the game imo.
Click to expand...
Not even. You might as well pick the other 2 variations.
Lackey loses to most if not all of the Kotal variations. Sadly, we get royally shreked by the sword variation (he can even zone us), The sun god is able to abuse our lack of options when blocked and can get health back which we can do next to nothing about realistically, and don't get me started on what obsidian totem does to us.
 
dennycascade

dennycascade

UPR_ghastem
Doombawkz said:
Not even. You might as well pick the other 2 variations.
Lackey loses to most if not all of the Kotal variations. Sadly, we get royally shreked by the sword variation (he can even zone us), The sun god is able to abuse our lack of options when blocked and can get health back which we can do next to nothing about realistically, and don't get me started on what obsidian totem does to us.
Click to expand...
Idk about that. Kotal can't combo 114airgrab on us, and sun god can't even confirm b122 into sunchoke because it whiffs. Lackey can armor all those sword gaps meterlessly and punish both swords on block with roll. Kotal's armor options get shredded by b12 in the corner. Lackey can charge through sun pizza and sword toss on reaction and even though kotal can block it, the best punish he can get is d1. I've played the hell out of this matchup and I can't see it being in kotal's favor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.