Question - Stunt Double Tips from A-List to Stunt Double

[Name v.5.0]

are all normals and string cancelled into mimic call and immediately into msk armorable or pokable on reaction, by a good opponent, offline? Or are there some viable mimic call cancels on block, where at list the opponent has to guess?

S4~mimic call is best. Some characters reversal armor attacks are so slow that you dont have to follow up with mimic shadow kick. However, on a read they can poke you. Others, like Cassie, get a full combo punish.

D4~mimic call can be a tricksy maneuver as well. D4 on hit spaces and staggers, allowing you a pretty safe follow up mimic shadow kick.

BUT LET ME BE CLEAR. You're always at risk trying to activate up close on block. Good players will punish, even online.

 

[Dja_Homies]

I'm pretty sure mimic shadow kick is +12. I could figure out the mimic block frame data pretty easily next chance I get, if there is interest.

In the corner I believe it is +13 since I am able to jail into a just frame f2 from testing but the just frame is quite tough. (Needs further testing to be proven) Midscreen wise I have figured it's +11 from the s4 reload and most of the other reloads since it will only jail into f3 from the range after the normal/string is canceled into reload to kick. Iirc armor comes out in 2 frames unless I'm wrong. If I am wrong may someone correct me on how fast the armor comes out. Not the move in general but the armor.

 

[smokey]

In the corner I believe it is +13 since I am able to jail into a just frame f2 from testing but the just frame is quite tough. (Needs further testing to be proven) Midscreen wise I have figured it's +11 from the s4 reload and most of the other reloads since it will only jail into f3 from the range after the normal/string is canceled into reload to kick. Iirc armor comes out in 2 frames unless I'm wrong. If I am wrong may someone correct me on how fast the armor comes out. Not the move in general but the armor.

f2 is like 15-16 frames how are you jailing into it at +13 bud?

 

[Dja_Homies]

f2 is like 15-16 frames how are you jailing into it at +13 bud?

14 frames iirc. I tested out on a human opponent in casuals before might be so. Like I stated further testing is needed and wanted to add to your statement/theory of it potentially being +13. I'll test it out further when I get home I got punished for my midscreen f2 attempts after a shadow kick but strangely not in the corner. Just a theory I have atm that I need to test.

 

[Dizzy]

@Dja_Homies

F3 hits on frame 12. If a move has 11f startup, it generally hits on frame 12.

F2 is one of the exceptions, it almost always hits slower than its startup indicates, likely due to the "hammerfist" animation of the attack. It generally impacts in 16f on standing opponents and 17f on crouching opponents.

 

[smokey]

14 frames iirc. I tested out on a human opponent in casuals before might be so. Like I stated further testing is needed and wanted to add to your statement/theory of it potentially being +13. I'll test it out further when I get home I got punished for my midscreen f2 attempts after a shadow kick but strangely not in the corner. Just a theory I have atm that I need to test.

f2 is barely ever 15 point blank and give up 1-2 startup frames if you are any further away or your opponents crouching/cassie.
From my tests ive had it come up from +10-11 (get armoured reversal on f3) to +13-14 where f3 jails but f2 will lose to armour. I think its to do with spacing on the shadowkick for that extra 1-2 frames to make the difference, though it could be any number of factors in an NRS game.
Also bear in mind unblocking into a poke/normal takes 1 frame, if they try to poke you get an extra +frame, though if they reversal (special or throw) they do not have this frame.

 

[Dizzy]

f2 is barely ever 15 point blank and give up 1-2 startup frames if you are any further away or your opponents crouching/cassie.
From my tests ive had it come up from +10-11 (get armoured reversal on f3) to +13-14 where f3 jails but f2 will lose to armour. I think its to do with spacing on the shadowkick for that extra 1-2 frames to make the difference, though it could be any number of factors in an NRS game.
Also bear in mind unblocking into a poke/normal takes 1 frame, if they try to poke you get an extra +frame, though if they reversal (special or throw) they do not have this frame.

That last bit is false. Reversals remove one frame of blockstun which is why you might have come to that conclusion. That said if you are neutral on block, two normals of the same speed will trade, there is no extra unblocking frames.

Additionally, there was a bug previously that if you crouch blocked an attack, it was more advantageous by one frame than if you had been stand blocking, but that was fixed in the last patch.

 

[smokey]

That last bit is false. Reversals remove one frame of blockstun which is why you might have come to that conclusion. That said if you are neutral on block, two normals of the same speed will trade, there is no extra unblocking frames.

Additionally, there was a bug previously that if you crouch blocked an attack, it was more advantageous by one frame than if you had been stand blocking, but that was fixed in the last patch.

So if something is -10 and you reversal special its can be punished by 11f ?
Ive been under the impression reversals didnt change blockstun, if somethings -7 you can punish it with a 7f reversal but need a 6f normal attack because of that extra frame for letting go of block. I remember testing it and if you are neutral on block equal startup normals dont trade (the defender loses by a frame), but a reversal special at the same speed will trade with that normal.
I was testing with Kung Jin EX Chakrams on block if i remember correctly, 0 on block and he has 9f 1 and 9f bf3.

 

[Dizzy]

So if something is -10 and you reversal special its can be punished by 11f ?
Ive been under the impression reversals didnt change blockstun, if somethings -7 you can punish it with a 7f reversal but need a 6f normal attack because of that extra frame for letting go of block. I remember testing it and if you are neutral on block equal startup normals dont trade (the defender loses by a frame), but a reversal special at the same speed will trade with that normal.
I was testing with Kung Jin EX Chakrams on block if i remember correctly, 0 on block and he has 9f 1 and 9f bf3.

Moves that are startup of 10f will hit on frame 11 at the earliest, regardless of it being a normal or special. Keep in mind that MKX in game frame data is listed as start up, not "impact" or "execution" as several other games, which just lists the first frame an attack will hit. So you essentially need to add 1 frame to the startup of an attack to calculate the actual frame it will connect.

This actually never changes, the only difference is with reversals, the "effective startup" is one frame shorter. The reality of the situation is one frame of blockstun is removed. No properties of the special change, it is just a unique characteristic of reversals in general for MKX.

So, for example, Jax f3 is 10f startup. Dash punch is 10f start up. If these moves are done in neutral, at the same exact frame, they will trade. However, Jax dash punch can punish -10 moves as a reversal, while f3 cannot. F3 can only punish -11 or higher. This is due to the reversal removing one frame of block stun.

Also keep in mind, up until the last patch, blocking moves crouching added one additional frame of blockstun, so if you did any testing while crouch blocking, the results will be different now since it was fixed.

 

[Killer Xinok]

Moves that are startup of 10f will hit on frame 11 at the earliest, regardless of it being a normal or special.

Now I'm confused. we can punish Sub zero Ice Burst with standing 21 skrc (9 frames startup) Ice burst is -10 .
If you're saying that the moves take 1 extra frame to connect, we would need an 8 frame move to punish it.. (1 frame do 'get out' of block stun with normal + 1 frame added to the startup?) are you sure about this aditional frame?

 

[smokey]

Moves that are startup of 10f will hit on frame 11 at the earliest, regardless of it being a normal or special. Keep in mind that MKX in game frame data is listed as start up, not "impact" or "execution" as several other games, which just lists the first frame an attack will hit. So you essentially need to add 1 frame to the startup of an attack to calculate the actual frame it will connect.

This actually never changes, the only difference is with reversals, the "effective startup" is one frame shorter. The reality of the situation is one frame of blockstun is removed. No properties of the special change, it is just a unique characteristic of reversals in general for MKX.

So, for example, Jax f3 is 10f startup. Dash punch is 10f start up. If these moves are done in neutral, at the same exact frame, they will trade. However, Jax dash punch can punish -10 moves as a reversal, while f3 cannot. F3 can only punish -11 or higher. This is due to the reversal removing one frame of block stun.

Also keep in mind, up until the last patch, blocking moves crouching added one additional frame of blockstun, so if you did any testing while crouch blocking, the results will be different now since it was fixed.

If thats the case then we basically tested the same thing and came to the same conclusion, but ive been using startup as impact (soul calibur habits).
Also I definitely tested using Shaolin EX LOW chakram so everything i did was from ducking, needs another test but at least I only put the frame in the wrong place, all my tests still say the same as yours, when coming out of blockstun a reversal hits 1 frame sooner than a normal.

 

[Dizzy]

Now I'm confused. we can punish Sub zero Ice Burst with standing 21 skrc (9 frames startup) Ice burst is -10 .
If you're saying that the moves take 1 extra frame to connect, we would need an 8 frame move to punish it.. (1 frame do 'get out' of block stun with normal + 1 frame added to the startup?) are you sure about this aditional frame?

Exiting block does not take 1 frame. It takes 0 frames.

21 will hit on frame 10 always. If you exit block, if you do it in neutral, if you do a run cancel into it, or anything. Always hits on frame 10. (Unless there is a weird hitbox issue)

 

[Killer Xinok]

Exiting block does not take 1 frame. It takes 0 frames.

21 will hit on frame 10 always. If you exit block, if you do it in neutral, if you do a run cancel into it, or anything. Always hits on frame 10. (Unless there is a weird hitbox issue)

Thanks for clearing up the things for me man

 

[Dizzy]

i thought mimic shadow kick is +7

I posted in the other thread the mimic block data but it's this:

SK = +14
EX SK = +14
Uppercut = +3
EX Uppercut = +48

 

[IrishMantis]

S4~mimic call is best. Some characters reversal armor attacks are so slow that you dont have to follow up with mimic shadow kick. However, on a read they can poke you. Others, like Cassie, get a full combo punish.

D4~mimic call can be a tricksy maneuver as well. D4 on hit spaces and staggers, allowing you a pretty safe follow up mimic shadow kick.

BUT LET ME BE CLEAR. You're always at risk trying to activate up close on block. Good players will punish, even online.

don't think Cassie can flipkick S4 think there is only a 2 frame window so they can only armour , but yet that is best cancel on block

Editead wrong, thought you where on about S4 MImick cancel SK

 

[Dizzy]

don't think Cassie can flipkick S4 think there is only a 2 frame window so they can only armour , but yet that is best cancel on block

4 xx Mimic = -11 on block
4 xx Mimic xx SK = Can block armor 17f or slower, otherwise a punish

That said, I believe after nutpunch you can space it so 4 xx Mimic gives pretty far push back to avoid ex flip and some other armor moves. Definitely good in some matchups where they only have slow armor too so you can do 4 xx Mimic Summon xx SK for free after NP, as you can block their armor and make them waste a bar (War God Kotal, Dvorah, Predator, etc)

 

[IrishMantis]

4 xx Mimic = -11 on block
4 xx Mimic xx SK = Can block armor 17f or slower, otherwise a punish

That said, I believe after nutpunch you can space it so 4 xx Mimic gives pretty far push back to avoid ex flip and some other armor moves. Definitely good in some matchups where they only have slow armor too so you can do 4 xx Mimic Summon xx SK for free after NP, as you can block their armor and make them waste a bar (War God Kotal, Dvorah, Predator, etc)

Oh I assumed he was on about the SK cancel after the mimic, I just came back to re read cause that's what I thought I meant

I meant not counting armour 4 MImick MSK can't be interrupted

A meaty 4 MImick cancel against Tempest is really good as he cant Ex spin it

 

[Dizzy]

Oh I assumed he was on about the SK cancel after the mimic, I just came back to re read cause that's what I thought I meant

I meant not counting armour 4 MImick MSK can't be interrupted

A meaty 4 MImick cancel against Tempest is really good as he cant Ex spin it

I see what you mean now, I misread it

 

[IrishMantis]

I see what you mean now, I misread it

I misread Name and you misread me lol

I'm gna be slapping up a few tourneys I won with SD tomorrow if your interested man

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Started to play SD two days ago. I am having a local tournament on Saturday with prizes and cash. I have Tanyaans (that I've played for 3-4 weeks) hell, I've played this game that long. I am trying to spend some time with JC and get his ready, we will see how far will it gets Me @Mikemetroid I am joking your SD team and really looking into him, he is so fucking dope! Will see you around this forum pal

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Oh I assumed he was on about the SK cancel after the mimic, I just came back to re read cause that's what I thought I meant

I meant not counting armour 4 MImick MSK can't be interrupted

A meaty 4 MImick cancel against Tempest is really good as he cant Ex spin it

What do you mean? I tried this last night and got spun every time.

 

[IrishMantis]

What do you mean? I tried this last night and got spun every time.

Meaty basically mean "max" so you do a S4 MC from max range and tempest spin should not hit

 

[n1kosh]

I think I have some more points, but I feel like I'm going around in circles. let me know if you have anymore questions.

Sometimes 113xxMRS wiff... What do you think about this?

 

[Mikemetroid]

Sometimes 113xxMRS wiff... What do you think about this?

113whiffs vs females

Vs some males when (when you're on the left)

If you use it in footsies, certain ranges of using 113 will cause MRS to whiff.

Its aggravating to say the least.