Question - Stunt Double Tips from A-List to Stunt Double

[Bilbo11]

Hello Johnny fans!

I main A-List Johnny and I am starting to realize that the stunt double variation would make some match ups easier, does anyone have any tips for adjusting straight away? or should I just go in as if I were to learn a new character?

I dont want this to turn into a matchup thread but I am having alot of trouble with holywood Cassie.
And also can I ask:

Do you live or die if you have Mimic up ?

 

[Somea2V]

Let me preface this with that I am merely a Day 1 Cage main, but not a high level Cage.

If you've dabbled in Fisticuffs at all, think of that as the basis for getting mimic out. Any safe set up for Fist Bump will get mimic out the same way. You can also end combos with mimic instead of Nut Punch to lose restand but safely get mimics out (Think the standard F24, D1, F3 xx BD3 but with DB4 at the end instead). For getting mimics out in pressure, you have to sacrifice one since you can cancel into a mimic attack out of mimic summon for a basically safe summon while still having one in the pipe (F3 xx DB4 xx BF4 is basically safe but let's you keep one mimic in exchange).

Outside of figuring out safe ways to pull them out, SD Cage, in essence, plays the same way as A-List. You're going to pressure your opponents with Mimics like you do with Run Cancels, just not as often and not quite as effectively. But when you do catch them, you'll typically do more damage. You'll also have a safer way to harass from range with Mimic Shadow Kick as it travels through just about anything (I think almost any projectile it'll "phase" through and it'll get past ice clone). And when you don't have mimics, you're going to play the same way as when you don't have stamina.

Think of it this way, not having mimics is like playing Cage without Run Cancels, something I'm sure we've all practiced for situations where we're fumbling them or if we're out of stamina. The same basic strategy is going to apply to both variations, it's just important to get comfortable with mimics and how they work just like getting comfortable with charges and run cancelling.

And finally... I don't play any Cassie players... at all, honestly. Can't help you there. Any higher level Cages, feel free to correct my advice.

 

[Bilbo11]

thanks man, your advice sounds solid. I'll see how I go, I just discovered this SD Cage vid, lots of damage here

I like your way of thinking, play as if you had no stamina for RCs. Makes alot of sense to me

From this video it looks like SD has alot of potential damage output and if you can safe mimic from certain strings this could open up the match ups, thanks!

 

[Somea2V]

thanks man, your advice sounds solid. I'll see how I go, I just discovered this SD Cage vid, lots of damage here

I like your way of thinking, play as if you had no stamina for RCs. Makes alot of sense to me

From this video it looks like SD has alot of potential damage output and if you can safe mimic from certain strings this could open up the match ups, thanks!

Ehh... it's a cute video but I would experiment with SD Cage more than this guy did. You should always be ending in Nut Punch or Shadow Kick for your combos, and usually Nut Punch at that for damage and restand (Shadow Kick for corner carry). He also wastes a lot of meter. You can get similar mileage in his combos for less meter with careful use of mimics and a little practice/experimentation.

That being said, Mimic EX DB1 bounces the opponent and is an overhead which can let you run with some shenanigans. Or literally run into them for corner carry (try it, it's fun). Also, be careful with your mimics. If you get parried, they go. If you get X-rayed or you X-ray (or I think any similar animation moves occur), they go. So you'll be back to mimic-less neutral game.

 

[Bilbo11]

I see, my main worry is that you live or die by the mimics being up or not, at least with A-List your on the same point the whole match without worrying about finding time to mimic up (except I watch my stamina like a hawk) in which case I try a throw or forceball to spend the time. The Video showcases the potential output of SD where from what I see is some serious damage and from what you have said the better zoning.

 

[Somea2V]

I see, my main worry is that you live or die by the mimics being up or not, at least with A-List your on the same point the whole match without worrying about finding time to mimic up (except I watch my stamina like a hawk) in which case I try a throw or forceball to spend the time. The Video showcases the potential output of SD where from what I see is some serious damage and from what you have said the better zoning.

Ahh, I see. While Cage is weaker without Mimics, I don't think being without mimics is an auto-lose vs. anyone. As easy as it is to get out mimics with canceling the summon into a safe projectile or integrating the mimic summon into existing BnBs, I wouldn't worry as much about not having it out/getting it out. If you already have adapted your play style to be stamina-conscious with necessary checks and breathers, it won't be that hard to make similar, but different, adjustments to mimic summons and strategy.

And I understand the point of the video now. He does get different zoning options with mimics, not necessarily saying better or worse but different. And as far as damage output, take this example: Mimics and strict execution added to the typical midscreen BnB - (already mimiced up) F24, D1, F3 xx DB1, RC 12, F3 xx DB1, RC 12, F3 xx BD3. Is a little more than 40-42% at midscreen, I believe, for no meter. That's all I meant. The video does show off some of his damage output, but you can get so much more from it.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Before you play stunt double what you must keep in mind is his fireballs are no longer + or hit mid, so youre going to have to change your pressure game drastically. Mimic can be used 3 ways: for pressure and hella chip, anti zoning or damage depends on your opponent really if they know the johnny mu they are gonna fall for his OH/low"mixups" so this is where you throw them which is actually a 50 50 anyway if theyre decent in the mu but still get hit by his mixup this is the mu were you want to keep mimics out at all time so when they get hit you hit hard. Next is the zoning opponent this is the mu were you wanna stay in dat ass but if youre having a hard time you get mimic out take a hit if neccesary then you walk to 3/4 screen punish a projectile with a sk then run in so when you get in, if you want pressure for no meter i reccomend using the mimic shadow kick as its around +9 or so this should garuntee a f3 after which you can end the pressure with f34 (safe and keep a mimic) or continue with another shadow kick.after the 2nd shadow kick is where the mind games come in because now you can 1: throw 2:try his weak ass mixup 3: bait a tech and punish (this is a lot of johnnys high lvl in a list and sd).
Now just because mimic sk is more + thats not to say that you shouldnt throw in mimic db1 which is +4 then continue pressure as its a good tool for catching them idiots who jump after everything and is also really quick. However if you are going to use db1 i would use the meter as this is the tool that lets him accumulate the most chip, for those setups visit @Name v.5.0 s thread he has an in depth chip and meter build guide but i will say 333 is the main string you should use to get chip. Now if you want to get mimic out safely you will have to use a mimic sk as it comes out instantly and negates the absurd recovery and hey +9 so not too bad. The strings i mainly use to summon mimic are f3 and 114 these are safe and now that hitboxes have been sorted theyre ideal to use as you cant just duck the shit and punish. Now you have to be wary when using mimics as alongg with the absurd recovery it also has like a 5 sec cooldown so when im in the conrner if you use both mimics or are in the cooldown of it i would end in 121 instead of nutpunch as its a hkd or splat (i cant remember off hand) but the important thing is it has like 30-40 hit advantage which by the time you apply your oki you SHOULD have it back. As for cassie fuck her little thot whack haircut ass bitch

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

@Name v.5.0

 

[MadeOfMetal]

@I Am The LK
@KHAOTIC iDante1

 

[Name v.5.0]

First tip with SD: Get your clones out. Waiting to get them out in a combo isnt always easy, and activating after a nut punch is a huge risk. Sometimes you need to wait for the neutral game and just risk it from a distance, or duck a fireball and activate. You ABSOLUTELY NEED these mimics out as much as possible.

2nd Tip: Chip, D4, and Throw are your friend. I'm not kidding, sometimes it comes down to those 3 things. Sometimes in my locals I'll play matches there the F2 never lands once.

Tip C: A block string into a mimic shadow kick isnt a bad thing...technically you have "pressure" here, but characters will armor through the follow up if they know the match up, and lots of people know the matchup now. You need to by conscious of where the match you're in sits. Does you're opponent have no bars? Then use them for pressure. (watch out for characters with 6 frame moves) Does the character have a weak armor move like Dvorah or Ermac? If so you might want to consider trying pressure since they cant full combo punish you. It's a risk you need to think about depending on the match. Dont forget to fake it as well. IF they know the matchup and you land a nut punch, hit them with a standing 4, or 114 and then block. Let them waste meter and then punish their ass.

4th tip: 3,3,3~EX-MRS, jip, 333~EX-MRS, jip, B3,4,3 is an amazing chip string. Does about 20%, takes 2 bars but you build one back. Worth it if the opponent lets you. They might take a hit to get out, if they do that, mix it up.

5: DAMAGE. Other SD people might tell you different, and sometimes it depends on the MU, but i tell ya what, I go for damage. 46% mid screen with 2 mimics, 1 bar. In the corner 50-60% with one bar. Fucking hurt people if you can. Some MUs, you may not be let in very often ( BONESHAPER, DUMB.) Make it all count.

There more, but i'm tired.

 

[Bilbo11]

Thanks heaps @im swiftt and @Name v.5.0

I appreciate the tips !

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Thanks heaps @im swiftt and @Name v.5.0

I appreciate the tips !

its an L haha but youre welcome

 

[P.F.]

2nd Tip: Chip, D4, and Throw are your friend. I'm not kidding, sometimes it comes down to those 3 things. Sometimes in my locals I'll play matches there the F2 never lands once.

I am glad I'm not the only Cage player who throw-whores. Seriously. Sometimes the easiest way of conditioning your opponent is to throw them two or three times so they start ducking.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I am glad I'm not the only Cage player who throw-whores. Seriously. Sometimes the easiest way of conditioning your opponent is to throw them two or three times so they start ducking to avoid your throws.

Yeah, there's no reason not to. Basically impossible to tech, and grabs beat pokes. It's not like you can continue pressure forever, and it's an ok way to get your mimics out.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Few things.

1. Patience.
Stunt Double requires you to be extremely patient, you have a weaker forceball, and are limited without your shadows activated.

Even with shadows activated. you only have two of them to use before you endure a 6 second cooldown.

2. SKRC? Meet exMRS
Ex Mimic Rising Shadow is going to be your new "pressure" tool. It replaces the MK9's forceballs, with an extremely plus (so damn plus you can get a jump in) launcher, you are able to do some "fucked up shit" with Stunt Double.

3. (force)Balls...
Your forceball is slower, does less damage, but is now horizontal.
This is key in a few matchups, being able to throw a horizontal forceball can help you in the neutral.

Nothing like a well spaced d4, forceball. (most characters can't do anything about this besides meter out).

4. Practice Hit-Confirming
You will have to be able to hit confirm any sort of rising shadow hit you receive, this is really crucial to stunt double's game because your opponent will be at your will when you have meter and shadows.

Practice running, jabbing, and confirming into a nut punch.

5. Practice combos
Stunt double has extremely high damage, however spacing is really important to get the most of the damage you want.

6. Activation
There is no way to activate trait up close on block, you will either trade, get poked, or get armored out.

On hit though, you can hit confirm rising shadow/shadow kick with your combos (and in the corner you can confirm both of them into a nutpunch reset)

7. F3 and you
F34 is -3 now, which is a nice tool to use to close space, but know that you can't just use this over and over, you will get beaten out if you try to f34 again after your opponent blocks and pokes after the attack.
However, use your opponents urge to poke by backing up and whiff punishing them (this doesn't work in some matchups because of the range of character's normals)

F3 is negative, but if you have shadows, using shadow kick (no meter) will make it safe (-3) and using exMRS, you will be able to continue your pressure.

I think I have some more points, but I feel like I'm going around in circles. let me know if you have anymore questions.

 

[rafaw]

Few things.

1. Patience.
Stunt Double requires you to be extremely patient, you have a weaker forceball, and are limited without your shadows activated.

Even with shadows activated. you only have two of them to use before you endure a 6 second cooldown.

2. SKRC? Meet exMRS
Ex Mimic Rising Shadow is going to be your new "pressure" tool. It replaces the MK9's forceballs, with an extremely plus (so damn plus you can get a jump in) launcher, you are able to do some "fucked up shit" with Stunt Double.

3. (force)Balls...
Your forceball is slower, does less damage, but is now horizontal.
This is key in a few matchups, being able to throw a horizontal forceball can help you in the neutral.

Nothing like a well spaced d4, forceball. (most characters can't do anything about this besides meter out).

4. Practice Hit-Confirming
You will have to be able to hit confirm any sort of rising shadow hit you receive, this is really crucial to stunt double's game because your opponent will be at your will when you have meter and shadows.

Practice running, jabbing, and confirming into a nut punch.

5. Practice combos
Stunt double has extremely high damage, however spacing is really important to get the most of the damage you want.

6. Activation
There is no way to activate trait up close on block, you will either trade, get poked, or get armored out.

On hit though, you can hit confirm rising shadow/shadow kick with your combos (and in the corner you can confirm both of them into a nutpunch reset)

7. F3 and you
F34 is -3 now, which is a nice tool to use to close space, but know that you can't just use this over and over, you will get beaten out if you try to f34 again after your opponent blocks and pokes after the attack.
However, use your opponents urge to poke by backing up and whiff punishing them (this doesn't work in some matchups because of the range of character's normals)

F3 is negative, but if you have shadows, using shadow kick (no meter) will make it safe (-3) and using exMRS, you will be able to continue your pressure.

I think I have some more points, but I feel like I'm going around in circles. let me know if you have anymore questions.

mimic shadow kick is -3 on block? i thought it was +10 or something like that, isnt it?

 

[Mikemetroid]

mimic shadow kick is -3 on block? i thought it was +10 or something like that, isnt it?

No way man, maybe ex, but regular isn't +10. It still a good tool because you can follow up after it, but you can easily get armored out of any follow up.

 

[rafaw]

No way man, maybe ex, but regular isn't +10. It still a good tool because you can follow up after it, but you can easily get armored out of any follow up.

But its not -3 right? bc i allways felt it was +!
Im not playing much SD lately but i remember that after lets say, F3xxMSK a F3 follow up can only be armored out.

 

[Mikemetroid]

But its not -3 right? bc i allways felt it was +!
Im not playing much SD lately but i remember that after lets say, F3xxMSK a F3 follow up can only be armored out.

I think you have a point, I think the fact that it spaces Johnny differently (as opposed to f34) makes it feel differently. but you may be right.

 

[Killer Xinok]

No way man, maybe ex, but regular isn't +10. It still a good tool because you can follow up after it, but you can easily get armored out of any follow up.

It is AT LEAST +11 cause you can easily do f3 mimic shadow kick f34 and it will be a true blockstring

 

[rafaw]

I think you have a point, I think the fact that it spaces Johnny differently (as opposed to f34) makes it feel differently. but you may be right.

-3 to ~+10~11 is a big diference hehe, fix it in your post there so the OP dont get false information.

 

[Biologic]

mimic shadow kick is -3 on block? i thought it was +10 or something like that, isnt it?

Mimic shadow kick is +11

Hit someone with a shadow kick and you're guaranteed another F3 (Since F3 is 11 Frames) Not even Kung Lao's spin can get out, it's a true block string.

Basically if they try to poke out you F3 them until they learn to stop, then you start to mix in other stuff

 

[albritz]

are all normals and string cancelled into mimic call and immediately into msk armorable or pokable on reaction, by a good opponent, offline? Or are there some viable mimic call cancels on block, where at list the opponent has to guess?

 

[Dizzy]

I'm pretty sure mimic shadow kick is +12. I could figure out the mimic block frame data pretty easily next chance I get, if there is interest.

 

[smokey]

Mimic shadow kick is +9 to about +13 based on the distance your shadowkick covers, obviously if they are further out the startup frames are longer but you can recover while theyre still in blockstun and carry on pressure. Its definitely not -2 but you can be armour out of a f2 and also f3 at some ranges..